After agonizing for weeks on what to do about the deteriorating situation in Afganistan and Pakistan, the White House has finally come up with an excuse for not deciding: blame it on President Karzai’s lack of legitimacy. But when did they discover this?
Did the White House really need to send Rahm Emanuel to co-opt CNN and CBS’ Face the Nation and send David Axelrod to ABC’s This Week, all to deliver a White House message to President Karzai?
That message is too clever by half: we can’t possibly decide whether to send more troops to Afghanistan until the US is assured it has a “credible partner” in the Afghan government. From CNN via HuffPo:
“It would be reckless to make a decision on U.S. troop levels if in fact you haven’t done a thorough analysis of whether in fact there’s an Afghan partner ready to fill that space that U.S. troops would create and become a true partner in governing,” said the president’s chief of staff, Rahm Emanuel.
The message to Karzai is that he’d better be cooperative in ending the uncertainty about the Presidental elections, either by agreeing to a timely runoff with his nearest rival or, if “timely” is a problem, at least agree to some power-sharing arrangement that will lend some legitimacy to the interim regime.
But the political message to the American people is that no one should expect Obama to make a quick decision — how convenient! — until the smoke clears in Kabul. When will that occur?
The argument that we should not be asking American troops to fight to preserve a regime that has no viability or legitimacy of its own is easily understood. The problem is that this dilemma has been there all along; it didn’t arise because of the election fraud.
Neither the US nor the Afghans needed the alleged ballot box stuffing to tell them the regime was thoroughly corrupt and lacked legitimacy. And long before the elections, the Afghans already knew the Afghan security forces were ineffective and insufficient; it’s not news that there is little or no functioning federal government outside the capital and a few cities, if that.
So what does the latest test for Karzai mean and how can he, or anyone else, pass it? If Karzai could not establish a credible government with the help of 68,000 US troops fighting the Taliban and tens of thousands of NATO troops guarding the cities, what exactly is supposed to happen that will change that reality?
It seems the latest rationale for delay is just another excuse for the Administration’s unwillingness to admit the obvious: that no one really believe the US can, as a foreign occupying power, create a functioning nation out of Afghanistan, no matter how many troops we send or how long we’re willing to occupy the country.
Think Progress: John Kerry sends the same message.





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Hey! Have we forgot that Nation Building wasn’t our reason for being there.
This balony that our lives and treasure should be spent to try and build a country from nothing, is just that balony.
Never ask a General what He needs, because the answer will always be the same. MORE TROOPS. His career remember hinges on what the outcome of His comamnd and the results from it. So quiting is not an option career wise.
The answer to win, should not be the consideration. To win what should be the Question? If these people were so good a fighters that they could beat the Soviets, they should be able to handle the Taliban on their own.
I think General Stanley McChrystal’s grim assessment of the war should not be looked at as a rally cry for war. We are in a hopeless struggle to think we are going to change Afghan society in order to stand stop al Qaeda. Never-the-less we should find a way to get out that would lead al Qaeda to have at least a little less to cheer about.
No I differ with scarecrow that the war is stupid, it is just hopeless unless we get extremely limited goals, see,
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/10214
RichardKanePA
I think the message is to John McCain and the prowar GOP. I think the message is the WH is willing to fight a PR war on this Rahm eh but he has a REP no matter how undeserved.
David Axelrod however might be a sign the WH will flood the sunday talk shows with WH people to talk on this issue.
Don’t you know by now that any criticism of the Obama administration is proof of racism?
Aren’t the American elections of 2000 and 2004 still smoldering?
“credible partner” — You won’t find it with this lot they’re seen by the Afghans as what they are, a hireling government who are there to collaborate with the (hated) American invader and incidentally loot whatever they can get their thieving paws on.
“Afghan government” — There’s another problem. A definitional problem, which is that whatever else you can call Karzai you can’t call him either the Afghan Head of State or the Afghan Head of Government. The Afghan’s themselves call him the “Mayor of Kabul”. Even that is pushing it as there are parts of, Afghan held, Kabul where his writ most emphatically does not run.
The same problem arises with any other “president” imposed by force of foreign arms.
Agreed, the existing gov’t is the biggest block to making a sustainable Afghanistan. But it’s a solution to the problem, too.
We have a way to get out, by making an open election and legal gov’t a condition of staying;
“Mr Karzai says he won the vote outright but widespread fraud has been alleged.
The US says no more troops will be sent to Afghanistan until it is established that the government is legitimate.”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8314302.stm
Well, shit, we had a “credible partner” in Irak with Ahmed Chalabi, didn’t we?
Fuckin’ warmonger assholes. Are they finally coming to the realization that Afghanistan is not “winnable?” Never was, never will be.
Could our economy “tolerate” a no war anywhere scenerio?
Sadly, I doubt that the soldiers we have recruited in our volunteer armies would put down their arms to become a Peace Corps.
But that is what should happen.
From your link:
Officials say Mr Karzai is furious over the prospect of facing a second round, threatening to delay or block attempts to hold it.
Oooh, the puppet’s gonna stamp his widdle feetsies and hold his bweath?
I wasn’t sure if Rahm was saying they’d defer a decision until after a run-off (weeks to months) or until there is a credible partner (maybe never).
Then we are a bunch of Racists here?
Karzai desperately wants to avoid the fate of the last guy the Taliban threw out of office. Castrated and hanged from a tree is not yer basic golden parachute.
From Greenwald (quoting the Boston Globe):
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/10/18/rohde/index.html
Don’t feed…
He concludes:
The policy in Afghanistan has been to win the hearts and minds of the people and the strategy was to make them feel safe and stand up to the Taliban. They also would be encouraged to build their own police and military to defend themselves. The hope had been that after an election there would develop a central government that would have legitamacy to build on. The fraudulent debacle that ensued however would not lead to that as the people view it as corrupt and illegitimate. The election was a game changer as far as our strategy. McCrystal’s report said if this (original policy) then this (military strategy). That strategy is not a one size fits all kind of thing. The failure of the election has changed everything and must be completely rethought. This is what Obama is doing now. There isn’t that big a rush as the conflict will wind down when the snows come and stay at low levels until next spring.
Yes, according to Jimmy Carter and several members of the glorious fourth estate.
It’s not even a particularly clever troll. Better to go all Darwinian and let it starve that way the breed will improve…… :-)
Good morning, SD and all of you other stalwart and decent souls …
So then, SD, you don’t “believe” or consider that this war (being somehow “different” from those in Irak or Vietnam, for example) was never about “winning” or any of the advertised “purposes”, but simply to further enrich and empower the “pinnacle” cla$$ (aka the political and corporate “elite”, thus, making its best use of the “base”)?
All being merely an extension of the true war, the class war?
DW
holding his breath until he turns blue is an alternate solution to the Problem, and BBC announcing it just got solved;
“A panel probing fraud claims in the Afghan election has found Hamid Karzai did not gain enough valid votes for an outright win, the BBC understands.
Preliminary results from August’s first round had placed Mr Karzai comfortably over the 50% plus one vote threshold needed to avoid a run-off.
But officials told the BBC Mr Karzai’s vote share had fallen below half after a number of votes were ruled invalid. ”
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8314613.stm
[Waving goodbye to the entire mess]
I don’t see the news that the WH sent two people to the sunday shows as bad news. I think this is more support early than we ever got on healthcare.
Okay, so the administration has found a way to dodge the trap McChrystal put them in, staving off putting more troops on the ground while calling attention to the illegitemacy of the Afghan election, and we’re…not happy about this?
On the one hand, I don’t blame the Obama Administration for wanting to push this decision back – it’s a no-win situation.
But, from an ethical standpoint, it’s not fair to the people (American soldiers included) who are being killed and maimed in a war that we can’t win. The sooner we develop, and implement, an exit strategy the better. The miracle scenario would be to find a way to leave on amicable terms with whatever government emerges, so that they refuse to become a safe haven for Al Qaeda — that may not be possible, but it sure would be great.
Still I would like the WH to say after 8 years of promises of victory every 6 months I think its time to just admit that George Bush lost this war awhile ago.
‘Tis likely but a brief “respite”, kyeo, until “resolve” has hardened, once again, into some surging, dramatic “plan”, which will, of necessity, take both time and “treasure” to implement.
Let us wait, at least briefly, to determine what ACTUALLY is intended, and then, actually happens.
Let us be circumspect in our new-found “hope” of rational and reasonable behavior … at the “top”.
If you take the view that 911 was an excuse, whether it was a created event, or a lucky one, the MIC saw this as the reason to secure the region… I mean secure the oil and gas there or the land where it would be transported across.
The bogus excuse about catching OBL was even admitted by W who could care less about OBL. He wanted an excuse to project US military power anywhere in the world. GWOT – how convenient.
We don’t need thousands of troops to catch OBL. Afghanistan is too disorganized to be a threat to the USA and AQ, if it is a terrorist organization seems to have fled Afghanistan.
So this is a war without a mission. We’re not going to do nation building or wage war against the burqa.
But standing down the miliary is not going to make the MIC and the generals happy. War is the blood that runs in their veins. The reason is not important. Give em hell
If the majority of Afghan insurgents are not religiously motivated (according to the Globe piece quoted above), Al Qaeda will have very little ability to shore up “safe havens.”
The Obama administration needs to be honest AND transparent.
They may have inherited a war in place, but they need to review how we got to where we are today and if the reason is BS, then simply declare that we are withdrawing and will send in humanitarian aid to repair infrastructure, education and health programs and so on. Close all bases and remove the appearance that we need a military presence in another sovereign nation.
Imagine another nation having military bases inside the USA?
I don’t have an afghan problem. I have several nice ones and I keep them folded on the back or side arms of the couch when they are not keeping someone warm.
Oh, wait…nah. I just needed to have something simple that works to say.
AQ is a bunch of pissed of Islamists who want the West our of their region.
I want us out of their region too!
When I first heard the lines coming at me from the interwebs, I thought to myself, “as soon as we find a credible partner”. I have to admit I thought it was the idiot boy GW’s ranting again about the “colishun of da willing”. I didn’t think anyone could be talking about Afghanistan being a partner, it just didn’t occur to me that they could be so honest.
Why does a PR war for another country have to be talked about in our own with such deft and circuitous language?
Americans, SanderO, appear to have a wee “problem” with such imaginings …
But it is a necessary first “step”, that “empathy”… toward any kind of a rational and humane future.
Let us hope that Obama contemplates the beginnings of such a “journey” …
Partner for what? What do we need a partner for?
These jerks sure know how to make up Wspeak nonsense,
Very nice summation, Sander. Thank you. I see it that way too.
We have a very nice Afghan – the children play with him all the time. Until he gets tired of it at which point he retires to his kennel and no amount of pleading by them can get him to let them ride him round the orchard again. I like a dog that knows his own mind. :-)
Thank you, Dubhaltach, you and Demi have both, happily, made my day far more pleasant.
:~DW
The White House needs to get its mind off the 19th century Great Game obsession and think more 15th century. As this TED talk discusses, the 45 million Pashtuns living mainly in Afghanistan and Pakistan would probably do better with their own country. Instead of the impossible notion of success in Afpak, the focus should be on the highly doable creation of Pashtunistan (or Pashtunia). Look at how quiet life is in Iraqi Kurdistan today. If you lived in Pashtunia you wouldn’t have to worry about Tajik misbehavior or Punjabis and Sindhis bumping you for promotion.
You’re welcome, David. It’s always a pleasure to see you here. Lifting peoples up is one of my favoritist things to do. *g*
LOL. I don’t have an Afghan on my couch or in a kennel in the yard, but I appreciate the humor! Looks like a nice Afghan (blanket) could be made from the coat trimmings of an Afghan (dog)! Maybe why the blanket has that name?
It’s the math. The election broke down on ethnic lines. Apparently we now know that Karzai cannot win an honest election without the Taliban becoming political instead of insurgents, which they won’t do for Karzai. Did Abdullah then win the vote honestly? Would Abdullah win a recount? We don’t know, because we don’t know how the other candidates will throw their votes.
It was up in the air until there was an official audit. Now it is still up in the air. The problem for US withdrawal is not that the government is corrupt but that it’s a corrupt government that we essentially installed and supported from 2001. The election could have given the people of Afghanistan the ability to select their own corrupt government. Had the Taliban thought they had the votes and ended the insurgency, that corrupt government could have been them.
The second piece of the puzzle is the Pakistani army’s offensive against the Taliban in South Waziristan. Pakistan would probably have had to conduct this campaign even if 9/11 had not happened. From the central government’s point of view the Taliban in South Waziristan are the equivalent of the Christian Identity movement in Idaho for the US–only larger and better armed and more of a threat to the regime.
Although the press has made much of the White House’s looming big decision on Afghanistan and although the military has pushed for a quick decision to increase troop levels, having a thorough discussion of strategy is a wise move.
Even if lightning struck and the decision was to get out, it matters very much how diplomatically (given the presence of NATO troops) and logistically (given the fact that moving additional troops into Afghanistan would take so long as to not meet McChrystal’s timeline). Part of that difficulty is figuring out how to do it so as to minimize further US casualties. In Vietnam, we had a negotiating partner, the North Vietnamese government. Until there was some sort of government in Baghdad, we had no negotiating partner in Iraq. Once that negotiating partner told us to leave, the president had the leeway to order the military to obey that agreement. At the moment, only Karzai can tell us to leave, and you know very well the chances of that happening–although if the US pushes over the runoff, he just might gather some war lord allies and take his chances.
Is the White House “agonizing”? I don’t think so. I think they made a good faith effort to listen to the generals in March, and now they have the objective evidence that the “best and brightest” counterinsurgency commanders can’t make it work any better than William Westmoreland did. So now, they are working on building an internal consensus between diplomats, generals, and intelligence agencies about what to do that is much less than what McChrystal wanted. And it is very delicate because you want to keep the generals and intelligence agencies aligned with White House policy (instead of the reverse) and you want to keep them supportive and not leaking to the media or going to their favorite Republican congressman complaining. That is the delicate balance in maintaining civilian control over the military. Otherwise you get the Vietnam stab-in-the-back narrative that has fueled neo-conservatism.
Another thread in the strategy has to be a build down of Pakistan’s and India’s nuclear weapons to head off the for now remote possibility that aggressive fundamentalist Muslim factions take over Pakistan (and it would be a minority government) and triggers escalation of the Kashmir conflict. What would the Pakistani military do in those circumstances? And what would India do to provide the political space for the dismantling or sequestering in another nation (China would be likely) of Pakistan’s nuclear arsenal? This is a difficult diplomatic issue that must be faced. Especially if the offensive in South Waziristan provokes a widespread terror campaign throughout Pakistan (that is the threat implied in the Rawalpindi and Lahore attacks).
One can admit the obvious, but one still has to figure out how to negotiate the diplomatic moves and the domestic politics to disengage successfully.
You know, I heard a story about a woman who actually kept all the fur from her dog’s brush and made a throw.
(I don’t actually have an afghan either, but several small blanket throws. Shh, don’t tell anyone. *g)
You is particularly good at hefting spirits, demi.
And that is one of the most difficult, yet rewarding, endeavors a true human being can embrace.
You is, always, much appreciated.
;~D
Ah, gee. Coincidentally, or not, my pastor’s homily title yesterday was “Know your weaknesses, but live your strengths.”
So Obama’s basically saying that we can’t fix the problem… until the problem is fixed.
Hm. Tautology, it’s like delicious irony but more delicious.
Scarecrow:
Thank you for this post.
It is well that you’ve not jumped on the happy-hopity band wagon of exclaiming that Obama has done seen the light.
We ain’t seen “change” … yet.
Only posturing.
If skepticism is to become “support”, however ostensibly “tentative”, then there must be genuine evidence, and continuing proof, that it is deserved.
We ain’t “there” yet.
Not by a long shot …
DW
Mornin’ DW. Actually I do think Rummy with his “Doctrine” thought they could overthrow the Taliban, install a puppet president a la the Shah, and let the capitalists move in and exploit the country for all it’s worth. The generals welcomed the opportunity to prove history wrong and defeat a popularly supported insurgency with armed force. The Afghans may not like the Taliban but they like us even less. Robert Fisk has written extensively on his travels in Afghanistan when the Russians first invaded and how they were reviled by the locals from the get go, believing nothing that came out of the Soviet-backed govt in Kabul. I don’t see that having changed with a change of occupiers.
Thoughtful analysis.
AND THE KILLIN’ GOEZ ON AND ON AND…
Citizen Scarecrow and the Firepup Freedom Fighters:
Has anyone noticed that we are spendin’ about a billion a day on Iraq and Afghanistan and startin ta get close to that on Pakistan between ordnance and direct aid to the corrupt leadership of that country? In the meantime, the only thing that makes any of these countries important enough to spend this kinda money is that Pakistan has “the bomb”…thank you very much George W. Fuckwad!! So people die every day at our hands, our kids die servin’ as security guards for corporate mercenaries and contractors and we can’t pull out because then we don’t have any “leverage” to make our “diplomacy” credible. Do I have that right so far?….OK now what to do?
Until we get our domestic politics squared away and lassoo the corporate oligarchy by breakin the insurance cartels, passin’ EFCA and restructurin’ and reinstituting controls on the financial sector…well until all that happens the best we can hope for is for Obama to string out the “status quo” without any new troop committments long enough for us to go broke enough for the oligarchy to give up on its visions of a new western empire and concentrates on savin’ what’s left of it’s broken domestic money machine.
We gotta get Obama to focus on the domestic mess we’re in…if he wins that fight in the next 9 months then the war shit will take care of itself…but we will remember who caused all the killin’ and who profited from it.
KEEP THE FAITH AND PASS THE AMMUNITION, WAR IS THE PERMANENT CONDITION OF A CAPITALIST STATE!
And the costs of war?
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/63407-400gallon-gas-another-cost-of-war-in-afghanistan-
No change, at all, SD.
Yes, your view of their initial “intent” is likely so.
But war, by its “nature”, always has plan “B”, to fall back on.
(If plan “A” does not pluck readily to hand, then more, usually much “more” of the “same” shall surely bring it to pass …)
Someone once remarked upon the similarity between war and insanity.
I think that still holds (however, there is, regardless, much money to be “made”, always, thru the “process”).
We call it “cost”, but rarely wonder whom it benefits and how much.
I guess that would be impolite, disturb the “narrative”, and sully the myths, however?
Those obvious questions, which don’t get asked, well, they are most inconvenient, as well, sunshine.
Suppose they held a war and nobody came?
“Suppose they held a war and nobody came?”
Jon Lennon’s question remains, for the human animal, always timely.
DW
Are you a racist? Be honest. Do you believe the SC representative (I forget his name) who said “You Lie” was not motivated by race-that he was simply making a criticism? Do you think he would be so unpardonably rude if Obama were white? Is it your position, like Fox news, that race is not a significant motivation in this country? Do you think criticism of Obama can never be racially motivated?
Obama disappointed many people here, including me, but his predecessor left such an unholy mess. Do you think we’d be better off with Bush rather than Obama? That’s something we could argue about.
As for trolls, I think it’s time for left and right to start discussing things rather than each of us call the other names. Perhaps MrCleaveland will tell us what he believes rather than talk in slogans.
Why can’t Obama see that the Republicans want our country and his administration to go bankrupt? They have been working on this no new taxes, no war tax, no taxes on the rich folks for decades but yet they spend money like it grows on trees for terror wars, oil wars, etc…
President Obama, Please remember you are President of the Untied States and should be deciding what’s best for this land mass first. Stop spending money we can’t afford on wars! Lets pay off some of our bills, get people to work on green energy and stop the monopolies and international co’s from controlling our gov & gov spending! Please remember you are a Democrat and were voted in as a Democrat and not an Independant.
Citizen DWBartoo:
Suppose they held a war and went broke payin for it…we’re gettin’ to the point that folks are gunna start makin’ the connection between our domestic economic mess and the money we’re transferin or printin’ to pay the oligarchy for our wars. That’s why we need to get a strong healthcare bill passed that breaks the back of the healthcare cartel and the broker we get the closer we get to gettin what we need.
Good analysis, Tarheel.
You are right and this shoud be shouted from roof tops.
Ah, the irony in your last sentence. It seems to be so trued. Reminds me of and the first shall be last and the last shall be first. Some old radical who loved people said that.
What DW said above, I think it was him, about war being an ever present part of capitalism. It doesn’t work to make happy humans and a system of justice.
But, we’ve grown so large. Too large for barter. Trade you a bushel of tomatoes for that there chicken. Oh, just shoot the Fox.
Uhhhh…Sunshine, some of the people who beat the Soviets, WERE the Taliban, or the same people who later became them. You can’t separate all the Mujahadeen from the Taliban.
AND, lest we forget:
http://www.mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n922/a09.html
WE are going broke, Norske.
THEY, the ones who WANT and encourage warfare are most decidedly not going broke.
The political and corporate elite are profiting, obscenely, every.single.day.
I hope the “connection” is made soon.
Genuine health CARE reform, a bill truly aimed at real “national security”, for the people, Norske, could begin to bring about exactly what you suggest.
That is why we must not be sanguine, ever; this critical moment is, as you remind us often, the “make or break” of it all.
Appreciate your voice, knowledge of history, and abiding humanity, Norske.
DW
I really believe we should be spending money in Afghanistan. Medical supplies. Sending them means to access and filter water, solar technology, agricultural tools, more subsidies to poppy farmers so that they can plant Pomegrante, almonds etc other means to make money and feed their families.
We can not abandon them again the way we did after the war with Russia
You mean actually offer to help other nations and peoples?
(Without usurping their resources, livelihoods and societal hopes?)
And then do it?
Leen, you are simply making too much sense.
Our leaders want to make lots of dollars (for those who deserve the big bonuses).
I would prefer your method.
Doubtless, most of the rest of the sane world would as well.
But, in these Obamable times, we shall have to wait for the wisdoms of “exceptionalism” to decide.
I wonder if there is ANY honest or thoughtful consideration of the method of international relationship you have suggested?
I really like this philosophy. If we made this our overall policy, we’d never spend money on deploying troops anywhere. Besides, I’m kind of cynical when it come to Afghanistan. Whatever causes delays is fine with me. We’ve had to delay getting money for health care, so it only seems fair that the warriors should have to wait, too. I don’t know why I am not hot and bothered about the time is of the essence arguments. Maybe who’s making them? Or that we’ve been there for nearly a decade so it’s hard to believe anything is now or never over there?
One Question. Could this be the Obama Administration’s way of starting a new conversation on Afghanistan? Instead of the old neocon Bush Cheney mantra, “We have to win!” It could be the beginning of the end of the Afghanistan War. At least, if they get a new PR push from this re-thinking they can get a tide turning on public opinion which would make it easier for the admin. to pull troups out of Afghanistan without too much backlash from the minority 20-30% who thnk we should be there in the first place.
to think that only 2% of the monies being spent in Afghanistan make it to the people. I have really struggled with the situation in Afghanistan learning so much from a dear friend who was studying here in the states on a Fulbright, now back in Afghanistan.
The abandonment of Afghanistan after Russia left (not much foreign aide) has caused a great deal of the problems there now. I did not support the invasion of Afghanistan and they the people there clearly consider us an occupying force. But what I hear and understand is that they need away to get off the heroin trades teat. Whether that is to find a way to buy opium for a legitimate medical reasons, while subsidizing other farmers to flip back to other agricultural means of making a living (pomegrante etc0
There are lots of people hurting over there. But helping them figure out there own way with our support and resources while not disrupting their deep Religious and cultural beliefs seems to be a key..from what my pals over there say.
Clean water, medical supplies, agricultural tools, small fruit and nut trees and best growing practices etc. But how to make sure those who need these supplies actually get them if you do not have a secure infrastructure for those who need to access
I think it’s time for left and right to start discussing things rather than each of us call the other names.
Wow, you are a rare bird in this aviary. But I’m glad to hear that. That would be nice.
Perhaps MrCleaveland will tell us what he believes rather than talk in slogans.
I believe the race card is so grossly overplayed that it devalues actual racism.
America owes the people, our fellow human beings, of Afghanistan and Irak, far more than they shall, ever, receive.
The American people could care less.
Now, after eight years, the American public wants “out”.
Consider, the respect America would gain, in the eyes of the entire world, were we to pursue peace as doggedly and with the same resources we spend on war?
I suggest that the time has come to try your method, for eight years or so, that we might have some comparison with our “traditional” mode of behavior.
I think the results would speak for themselves, and there would also be many more people alive to speak for themselves, as well …
DW
History repeats itself. Now whose Vietnam War is it?
*********
“According to this 1998 interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, the CIA’s intervention in Afghanistan preceded the 1979 Soviet invasion. This decision of the Carter Administration in 1979 to intervene and destabilise Afghanistan is the root cause of Afghanistan’s destruction as a nation.
Q: When the Soviets justified their intervention by asserting that they intended to fight against a secret involvement of the United States in Afghanistan, people didn’t believe them. However, there was a basis of truth. You don’t regret anything today?
B: Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I wrote to President Carter. We now have the opportunity of giving to the USSR its Vietnam war. Indeed, for almost 10 years, Moscow had to carry on a war unsupportable by the government, a conflict that brought about the demoralization and finally the breakup of the Soviet empire.
Q: And neither do you regret having supported the Islamic fundamentalism, having given arms and advice to future terrorists?
B: What is most important to the history of the world? The Taliban or the collapse of the Soviet empire? Some stirred-up Moslems or the liberation of Central Europe and the end of the cold war? ”
http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html
All this bitching. You fools paid for Karzia to fly around the world in His green robes and stupid hat playing that HE was a world leader. After your Government installed Him and paid for everything He’s got done and passed to His friends and relatives.
We made His Afghan ass, what it is.
We have played and paid for eight years, while the generals were in charge, and we are in a no win situation. Winning even now is to stay until we can make something out of the mess we created, so we can think of going home.
This could take another ten to fifteen years, and hundreds of billions more of our dollars, to make something from poppies and rocks.
The Afghans are not even a cohesive society, so we have nothing to start
with.
We should pull out while the gittings good, and we still can afford to bring our troops home. One more dollar and one more day is to much.
Maybe we’ll be in luck, and McCrystal will resign like the Republicans think He should if Obama doesn’t give Him what he want’s.
You didn’t answer any of my questions, but no matter. The real problem is I doubt the other contributors to this thread want you and me turning the thread into a private conversation, hence the repugnant trolls.
I have no idea what part of the political spectrum you belong to. If you wish to explore our differences, and I am sure we have differences, drop me a line at ekunin@att.net
Iremember’54@ 1:
“Never ask a general what he needs, because the answer will always be the same: “MORE TROOPS!”
Especially, when the general whom you ask, is one that was hand-picked by yourself, but who is STILL a defender of Bush’s original idea: that Afghanistan can be coverted into our 52nd state. (Iraq is #51. Not much luck there, either…)
That Obama didn’t reach down a star and get a brasshat who is perceptive enough to know a clusterfuck when he sees one, and honest enough to begin saying so, in increasingly direct fashion, in the kind of co-ordination with the white house that we saw so much of with the Bush administration, only in the other direction, was a major brainfart. How can he sack McChrystal? His little talking to on Air Force 1 didn’t seem to do much good, since Stanly has upped the ante, troop-wise. Obama has made himself a much tougher row to hoe, than was necessary.
It would be interesting to hear, pre-McChrystal, the white house dialogue about whom to put in charge of that misery. Was there even a voice for a general who would at least nibble around the edges of:
“We’ve done all we can do. Let’s cut our losses and get out.”
Having that kind of an ally, Obama choice would have been much easier. Now, with his own general yelling, in no uncertain terms: “SURGE!” We just moved further into quagmire cul-de-sac.
Karzai is part of PNAC. That is why he was installed as governor. Afghanistan has a lot more than poppies and rocks. It has the potential to be one of the richest countries in the world. We hear about attacks by the Taliban outside of Kabul. One of the reasons for these attacks is because in Nov /07 the Chinese bought the right to develop the largest copper field in the world. This mine is south of Kabul. American soldiers are now guarding the Chinese workers as they are developing roads, etc. Afghanistan has iron ore and marble, also. The US will not leave Afghanistan as there is far too much money to be made there.
http://www.afghan-web.com/economy/china_copper.html
“A recent study released by the U.S. Geological Survey and Afghanistan’s Ministry of Mines and Industry estimates that Afghanistan’s natural reserves have the potential to produce over 1.6 billion barrels of oil over 15 trillion cubic feet of natural gas in the near term.
Afghanistan contains significant deposits of precious and semi‐precious stones, including emerald, jade, lapis lazuli, ruby, sapphire, alabaster, quartz and tourmaline.
Coal, Salt, Gravels, Sand, ”
http://trade.gov/static/Minerals_Law_Guide_2008.pdf
What the fighting in Pakistan’s Swat Valley is really about.
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“‘God has given us enormous wealth in terms of emeralds from Swat, rubies, pink topaz, beautiful tourmaline,’ said Ilyas Ali Shah, a gemologist with the government-run Pakistan Gems and Jewellery Development Company.
In February this year, militants waging a bloody insurgency to expand control opened three shuttered emerald mines in the northwest Swat valley around the main town Mingora and invited villagers to blast away. ”
http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/provinces/04-taliban-cash-in-on-pakistans-untapped-gem-wealth-qs-03