
Last week, Taser International spokesman Steve Tuttle revealed that the use of Tasers, which are now standard issue weapons for police officers everywhere the United States, has serious risks.
Unfortunately, Steve Tuttle wasn’t talking about the risks for those who are tasered.
Instead, he was referring to the growing concern among the makers of Tasers that the use of their products are turning their best customers into targets of controversy and public outrage.
And Taser manufactures now have an answer for the police, and the answer is: don’t aim for the chest.
You see, in an effort “to minimize controversy, increase effectiveness and provide enhanced risk management” (i.e. in order to avoid increasing public outrage over the abuse of this dangerous weapon), Taser manufacturers are now suggesting to police officers that they instead try to taser people in the back, pelvic muscles, or thigh.
Should the Taser manufacturers, who not only make the Tasers, but also provide police with the training to use them, be commended for their recent efforts at controversy-management? No.
The way I see it, controversy over arming police officers with Tasers isn’t the problem.
There are at least two problems with arming police officers with Tasers, and more public outrage – more controversy – is very much needed if these problems are to be resolved successfully.

The first and most obvious problem with arming police with Tasers is that these weapons have a history of seriously hurting people and even killing people.
Earlier this month, a seventeen-year-old boy in Florida was riding a bicycle when a police officer tried to taser him from a moving police vehicle. The boy was then run over by the police and died under the car.
The Southern Christian Leadership Conference issued the following statement:
Yet again we are seeing the use of Tasers as a compliance device, rather than protection. One cannot believe that officers are being trained to fire tasers from moving police vehicles and placing the officer and the suspect in uncontrollable situations. A young man is dead and for no apparent reason.
This problem of police misusing and/or abusively using Tasers has been evident for several years.
Amnesty International USA has recommended that police departments “either suspend the use of Tasers and stun guns pending further safety research or limit their use to situations where officers would otherwise be justified in resorting to firearms.”
Numerous examples of the misuse of Tasers are documented at Amnesty International USA’s "Taser Abuse in the United States."
According to Amnesty International USA,
Since June 2001, more than 351 individuals in the United States have died after being shocked by police Tasers. Most of those individuals were not carrying a weapon.
But the fact that Tasers can cause and have caused injury and death is only one big problem with arming police officers with these weapons.
The second problem is that arming police with Tasers has contributed to a major change in the relationship between police officers and the citizens whom they are supposed to be serving and protecting.
As the Southern Christian Leadership Conference put it in the quote above, we see again and again and again “the use of Tasers as a compliance device, rather than protection.”
Indeed, Amnesty International is also concerned
that Tasers are being used as tools of routine force – rather than as an alternative to firearms.
This second problem is as big as the first. There was a time when police were supposed to arrive at the scenes and calm situations in which citizens were often anything but calm.
Now, a student obnoxiously questions a politician during a Q&A, is held down by several police officers, and is tasered.
A great-grandmother gets emotional about getting a traffic ticket and is tasered.
A professor, standing in his own house, is confronted by a police officer, gets upset, and – no, he wasn’t tasered – was arrested because the police officer – Cambridge, Mass. police Sergeant James Crowley – is too much of a dick to understand that, as a police officer, the responsibility to calm tense situations is his and not the responsibility of a Harvard University professor or of any other citizen.
Sgt. Crowley may not have used a Taser to subdue a highly respected scholar, whose crime appears to have been getting overly emotional when police officers confronted him in his own home.
But Sgt. Crowley’s actions that day are indicative of a new law enforcement paradigm that requires citizens to fear the police, a new law enforcement paradigm that dictates that citizens must be able to calm themselves instantly in order to perfectly obey, comply with, and conform to the orders of police officers, regardless of whether or not they are posing a threat to themselves, others, or the police officers and regardless of whether or not what the police officers are telling them to do makes any sense.
Sgt. Crowley was never told by his superiors that what he did was stupid, inappropriate, and excessive.
Far from it.
In other words, even citizens who are not posing a threat to anyone must be in total control of themselves at all times and obey police officers, while the police officers in turn do not hesitate to lose control of their own emotions and even arrive at scenes only to create the very tension that leads to the use of excessive force.
Until that paradigm changes, it’s obviously a terrible idea to arm police officers with Tasers.
But even if that paradigm were to change, Tasers should be used as an alternative to firearms – i.e. thought of and used as a deadly weapon – or they should not be used at all.





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Lets give them grenade lauchers instead.
I agree with the diary but you need to be more specific.
(1) The use of a tazer is torture. Use the word.
(2) Torturing people is a criminal act. It’s not “stupid”. It’s not “inappropriate”. It’s not “excessive”. It’s not even “abusive”. It’s a huge crime. The appropriate response to crime is to arrest the suspect and give them a trial. That needs to happen when an officer tortures someone just as it would any other depraved lunatic who kidnaps people and tortures them.
(3) False arrest is a crime too. It’s kidnapping.
This diary was first up at 5pm and had 5 comments. Now with changes in the title it is starting over. Can the previous comments be brought to this one?
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/12147
an interesting aside
yesterday, an apolitical, fairly conservative co worker unexpectedly asked me:
Technology and technological thinking about police work will do more to totalitarinize (if I may make up a word) the work of “peace officers” in this country than any right wing city council or police chief.
Corporations will sell sonar, microwave, and any other pain-inducing product to “law enforcement” to bring civilians to their knees, even if it ‘accidentally’ stops many of them from breathing — permanently. These weapons are coming. It’s good ol’ american ingenuity bringing fascistic crowd-control.
When you got the tools, you use the tools.
Unless the concept of police forces is reformed in this country — especially since Ronnie Rayguns dismantled so much of the social net for distressed and and desperate people, leaving permanent and growing tribes of homeless and mentally disturbed refugees all over the nation — then these tools of the trade, and the ‘collateral damage’ wrought by them will continue to be tolerated by a docile and compliant citizenry ceaselessly, and irrationally fearful of crime.
For a look at the political divide and its irrelevance, here’s an article from sister cities Eugene and Springfield:
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/sites/web/news/cityregion/22287011-41/story.csp
Oh gee. Sounds like rape to me.
Taser wires get extremely hot and burn your skin. My friend has scars crisscrossing his body from getting tased. This is a torture weapon.
There are LOTS of problems with tasers, from the legal, to the ethical, to the behavioral. Jonathan Turley highlights may of the problems on a regular basis.
My big concern from a societal and psychological basis is that giving the police (for now; how many others in the future?) a putatively non lethal way of creating conforming behavior. Who determines what and when this is necessary. We are in no man’s land and the problems are being fleshed out on a case-by-case basis.
While we may think that isolated abuses are wrong and need to be ‘corrected’, accepting the appropriateness of the tool within the framework of law enforcement itself seems to me a verify dangerous and slippery slope towards “1984″ style behavioral control. Eventually just the threat of use will be enough to make individuals follow directions without question. This strikes at the heart of ‘democracy’, such as we have left, and reinforces everything that authoritarian government craves.
small-town cop: taser trigger-happy :: http://tinyurl.com/yfzx64o
I hate threads like this – when thousands upon thousands of cops do their jobs and do them well, nobody says anything because that’s their job and their duty.
But when a small handful (and we are talking about a small handful in the grand scheme of things) are thugs and brutes, everyone gets tarred with the same brush.
What do we expect from a country who tortures (while most of the people to do their jobs and do them well)?
It’s not about individual cops, it’s about a creeping culture of abusive evil, of military-industrial-complex-think looking for everywhere it can to roost.
The plain, unvarnished truth is that police officers, as a group, lack the “firepower between the ears” to be entrusted with such a marginal weapon as the taser.
The sad fact is that more and more jurisdictions are relying on the “easy” rather than the “efficacious”, which probably reflects the sad state of mentality inherent in our current crop (or should I say “crap”) of ethically-challenged public servants.
It’s getting much more prevalent. This is not about tarring the police. It has to do with a tool, and in inappropriate tool for “law enforcement”. Read with more discrimination. However, with the perceived advantages towards more misuse of the tool, one could imagine that increasing numbers of police will succumb to thuggery. Is that what you want?
The thousands of good cops should decry the transformation of policing into low intensity paramilitary work. Some do – LEAP comes to mind, there are probably other organization of officers that are trying to change the mentality from “escalate first” to “how do I de-escalate in a safe manner”. As a citizen the second attitude deserves support, the first deserves opprobrium.
it would be interesting to enforce a rule in police reporting/paperwork – instead of using “suspect” or “subject” to describe civilians use “citizen”. I suspect over a short period the attitudes might change, if not then make it more personal still, Joey’s dad or Karen’s sister … it becomes harder to have a callous attitude.
There are also otherwise good cops on the wrong side of the thin blue line when it comes to policing their fellows. Their acquiescence enables further erosion of police/citizen relations.
All those police departments should be aware that they are being punked by Taser. It is attempting to put them between the harmed and the dead and its balance sheet. By issuing this statement, the manufacturer is telling its intended users that they are handling a deadly weapon and are solely liable for how they use it.
The advice not to shoot at the chest – or, presumably, the head – but to aim for the thigh or upper arm, is makeshift. It implies that some of the harm from using their weapon could be averted, but that their weapon is still deadly. Taser is putting the liability for the use of their dangerous product on its good customers.
That won’t work, mind, but like Cheney and Holder’s intense maneuvering to avoid admissions about torture and illegal domestic spying, it gums up the works, establishes more defenses and grounds for appeal, and makes the jury’s job harder.
As Taser’s insurance company might admit to its peers who insure the directors of Enron and AIG, Delay is Good. It’s not an outright win. But it means keeping money longer, and making more with it. It means fewer cases decided against them either earlier or in a bunch. The purpose is clear, however. As Cheney’s answers to Fitzgerald left Libby out to dry, this is Taser trying to substitute police department liability for its own.
Police are trained to hit center mass, not aim for extremities. Under pressure or under fire, you revert to instinct or basic self-defense training: drop the guy “threatening” you. Which means that Taser’s advice won’t do much to stop the deaths from Tasers, so long as police keep using them, but it complicates making claims against Taser and winning.
I recommend that police departments cut the current on their use of Tasers. Stop using them. Demand immediate refunds. Imagine what a thousand police departments doing that would do to Taser’s stock and its ability to retain its former tobacco company salesmen. As much, I imagine, as if a few dozen coroners ruled that their products were the immediate and direct cause of an unlawful death.
How about they provide a $10,000. assurance that would be paid to anyone proved innocent on the day the verdict comes back, to compensate the innocent who shouldn’t have been tazed.
This is the same old worst of the worst , the scum you shouldn’t worry your head about.
We are detainees in a military madhouse, that was formally a free country and the military madman spoiled our country.
I don’t know if the same person who posted this here posted this at Kos (given the apparent feud lately that might not be true, but whatever) but I’ll say a condensed version here of what I said there.
In a perfect world, cops would only use TASERs against the people who really needed to be TASED. Dangerous, non-compliant criminals who pose a direct threat to law enforcement and/or other citizens.
I believe if used properly, TASERs can and should be a part of the law enforcement repertoire. For those of you calling it a “torture weapon”, in my mind, again in a perfect world, I could care less if someone really got significantly scarred by a TASER because they would have deserved it. You could argue that being maced is torture too, do you want to outlaw that as well?
I understand that the abuse of these weapons by police officers is terrible and those people who feel the need to do such a thing should be stripped of all of their powers and privileges and why don’t we TASE them too and see how they like it?
That’s a bit hyperbolic, but I have less than zero tolerance for law enforcement abuses. But I also have zero tolerance for needless neutering of the people who are supposed to be protecting us.
I do read with discrimination, but every thread that I have seen on this subject on other progressive blogs always ends at the same place.
Your point is valid, but several questions remain, including whether the “thousands upon thousands of cops [who] do their jobs and do them well” need Tasers to do so.
A police officer who is qualified and professional probably would agree that Tasers are dangerous weapons and that they are, in fact, totally unecessary additions to the tools that police officers have had for decades prior to the invention of Tasers and other stun devices.
Unfortunately, there are unqualified people who are given a tremendous responsibility, great authority and badges who police our neighborhoods carrying a weapon that is far too often used as a compliance device.
And my larger point about there being big dicks with badges (like Sgt. Crowley) and about the system in which their superiors defend their excessive and abusive actions remains totally valid.
Sorry, but silence is consent. Obviously, there are many qualified and professional police officers, but a free pass is far too often given to police officers who think they are – and act like they are – above the law.
They are taking lessons from Congress and the administration.
No, they are taking liberties because of Congress and the administration.
And no, I am not tarring all the police. I know many of them here where I live and they do a grand and even a contemplative job.
But the dead are still dead.
Tasers are not a remedy for the safe avoidance of the use of deadly force. They are the use of deadly force.
Tasers have been in the field long enough to demonstrate that, and to demonstrate that the training associated with them errs on the the side of overuse (the better for profits), not restraint, which maximizes adverse consequences for victims and police.
Tasers make the infliction of intense pain, if not torture, a routine part of public policing. They encourage inflicting intense pain to control the public in circumstances where control is neither a necessary nor a legal application of police powers. They should not be part of police weaponry.
Their existence gives police in the field, their managers at HQ and the communities they police a false sense of security. Quite soon, the cost of that false security, like litigating religion taught as science, is likely to become very expensive.
These products don’t do what they claim to do. They are a drain on public resources at a time of mass lay-offs. They shouldn’t be used. If they are, the same rules should apply to their use as the use of a pistol.
Concur with Blue; what happened in the promotion?
Wow! I was wondering if this subject would ever come up for discussion.
The Police in my state of Texas are obsessed with compliance and money for the municipality. I’m sure everyone is familiar with the Dallas Police Force giving out tickets for not speaking English. It was a common practice among the entire Police Force. Where were the qualified and professional police officers to point out that these people were not breaking the law?? There are many more stories and I’m sure everyone knows one. The question is: what can be done?? What can we do to achieve police forces with qualified and professional policy officers??
I am so glad to see this topic covered at FDL, and very glad to see K-ville on the front page. Thanks for this post.
These torture devices shouldn’t be tolerated in a free civil society. Police departments need to understand they are being hung out to dry by the maufacturer, who formerly backed their plays and granted money to medical examiners.
Time to return the toys, boys in blue.
In the UK normal people can buy tazers i have used one they are pretty powerful
Of course there are going to be deaths involving the taser. As I see it there is a more fundamental issue that has never been addressed, that the supposed nonlethal nature of the taser leads cops to use it indescriminately. And as an instrument of torture. That’s right, the psychopaths in blue love that they can zap whoever they want whenever they want, without any repercussions. So you get 85 year old grannies and 5 year old miscreants being zapped with impugnity.
At the very least, there ought to be a review, such as in the case of the discharge of a pistol, as to whether the weapon was used properly and with reason. Otherwise, expect to be tased if you look crosseyed at one of our finest.
“the psychopaths in blue”
Gee, that’s such lovely wording.
Why am I not at all surprised that you’d focus on the wording in the comment @ 28 – “the psychopaths in blue” – and ignore my response @ 20 to your comment @ 10?
Because I’ve heard the argument before and it’s a crappy argument, that’s why.
“Silence is consent”? That’s bullshit. It has always been bullshit.
So, you are saying that police are stupid, that is why they should not be allowed to use Tazers, correct? Other than cop reality shows, police dramas on TV and the dashcam videos on utube have you any real knowledge of policemen? Do you understand their function in society? Do you have any understanding of the multitude of roles that they have to engage in daily? It takes smarts just to get a law enforcement licence, over 98% of police are college grads, yet they do not have the “brainpower” to use tazers. Unfreekinbelievable. You are the example that the rethugs use to show how “liberals” hate america. Wow, cops are armed with,usually, Glock(or similar brand) semiautomatic pistols in calibers ranging from 9mm to .40 that have double stack clips holding up to 18 rounds. They also carry 12 gauge semiauto shotguns in their cars and many police depts also have patrol cars carry M-16 5.56 semi auto rifles. So if they decide that rather than shooting a suspect-and all you second guessers might just think that while you have loads of time to discuss why a cop might have used a tazer rather than his service weapon,and to think about the fact that there are thousands of cops, only a very few do the wrong thing. The cop only has,at the most, a few seconds to decide what to do to stop someone from a-shooting the cop, b-committing suicide by cop, c-killing some other person. There are thousands of cops who do their jobs without becoming stars on utube. Think about this,pretend you are a cop, someone is standing in the street pointing a gun at someone standing close to him, you yell at him to drop the gun, he does not, quick now you have only seconds to decide what to do. Shoot him and risk him still pulling the trigger and shooting the other person, or tazer him, leaving him alive yet unable to shoot who he was aiming the gun at. What would you do? Sure there are a very few cops who get off using a tazer over and over, but they are very very few. And if the tazer did not exist the cop would have to shoot the suspect wouldn’t he? Shoot to wound you say? I say you watch way too much TV. Can’t be done. Cops are trained to shoot at the center of mass, the body core. Shooting the gun or other weapon out of the hand of a suspect is far more stupid an idea than you saying that all cops are stupid. Oh, BTW, I am not a cop, have never been a cop. But I do have a CCW license and do carry a gun to protect myself and have met many cops at shooting ranges. And I also have the ability to distinguish between reality and the fiction one sees on TV. Carrying a tazer gives the cop the ability to not kill a suspect but to capture him alive. Which is what I thought all of you had decided was the object. So if you would deny the cop the tazer, what would you have him/her do? You only have lethal force left. Quick, you have 5 seconds to decide, what are you going to do? Shoot him? or allow him to shoot you or someone else?
Oh, and the BS of thinking that guns will somehow magically disappear or will somehow be regulated out of existence. Not gonna happen. Over 40 states now have CCW laws on the books and lately, every law restricting ownership or denying CCW laws, has failed in court. Face it, the US has lots of guns and bad guys have never needed to get a gun legally so laws never stopped them anyway.
So, your view is that the arguments in this post and the arguments in my response @ 20 to your comment @ 10 are “crap.”
Thank you for admitting it so explicitly.
I’m done with this witness.
And I rest my case.
FYI, all police depts(that I am aware of) require that a cop must have the tazer used against him before he is allowed to carry it. IOW, the cop is shot with the tazer before he can carry it so he knows the results. Same with cops who carry mace, it is used on them in training so they can feel the effects.
I’m going to transfer them.
So you would rather the cop just shoots the perp? Then you have the hospital costs and the court cases against the dept due to the shooting. Which is more? Which is worse?
There’s so much nonsense in this comment that I hardly know where to begin.
Let me just direct you to the link for Amnesty International USA’s “Taser Abuse in the United States.” (it appears in the post above.)
Please also read my response @20 to Spotts1701.
By the way, I wonder if you’d have the courage of your convictions to send your nonsensical comment to the family of Victor Demorris Steen, the boy who was needlessly killed earlier this month in Florida and about whom you can read more HERE and HERE.
I doubt you would be willing to send your comment to his family, and there would be something seriously wrong with you if you would be willing to send it to them.
And, yes, I do have real knowledge of policemen.
Again, see my response @20 to Spotts1701.
bluebutterfly October 31st, 2009 at 2:28 pm
1
Changes are being made province by province in Canada. The realization that a sometimes fatal weapon was being used far too much has finally received some legal recognition. These are British Columbia’s new rules which were needed to stop laser trigger happy RCMP members. Needless to say, the taser manufacturer is not pleased. Rules like these should be in force everywhere.
********
“That means Tasers should only be deployed when all of the following criteria are met.
* The officer is enforcing a federal criminal law.
* The subject is causing bodily harm or will imminently cause bodily harm.
* No lesser-force option has been or will be effective in eliminating the risk of bodily harm.
* De-escalation and/or crisis intervention techniques have not been or will not be effective in eliminating the risk of bodily harm.
* In addition, the government will move to ensure all police using stun guns have access to defibrillators, said Heed.
Conducted energy weapons will now undergo regular testing and police will be required to report all use of the weapons to the province, said the statement. ”
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-columbia/story/2009/07/23/bc-new-taser-rules-adopted.html
Jason Rosenbaum October 31st, 2009 at 2:46 pm
2
Great post, Knox. And an issue that needs way more attention. Tasers aren’t nearly the non-lethal weapons most think they are.
bluebutterfly October 31st, 2009 at 2:54 pm
3
Part of the problem of overuse is no doubt because the users are taught that tasers are safe.
**************
“1/30/2009 – RANDOLPH AIR FORCE BASE, Texas — The 12th Security Forces Squadron recently completed training with a new, non-lethal tool for their belt, in an effort to improve the number of options police have to help deter crime and aid in self-defense.
The 12th Security Forces Squadron recently completed training with a new, non-lethal tool for their belt, in an effort to improve the number of options police have to help deter crime and aid in self-defense.
“And it’s a safe tool,” said Major Hellstern. “It does not affect a person’s heart. It does not affect pacemakers. It will not kill a person. This is a non-lethal tool that can incapacitate an individual for a period of time long enough that we can bring control to a situation.” ”
http://www.randolph.af.mil/news/story_print.asp?id=123132930
Have you ever noticed how many of the officers who use or mis use tasers are extremely over weight. One would think there would be a weight limit to officers or a standard for being in shape.
Look at the size of this officers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZdCUdR8qNF4
THIS ONE IS OUTRAGEOUS. No need to wonder why officers are called pigs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmByfTKKUV4&feature=related
Shot once. How many times to do we hear about a cop tasing someone five times?
From Pam’s HouseBlend, there have been 36 taser deaths in 2009 alone (through 9/24/09).
ubetchaiam October 31st, 2009 at 5:59 pm
4
“Until that paradigm changes, it’s obviously a terrible idea to arm police officers with Tasers.” ; yup. Unfortunately, Police orgs all across the U.S are also being hit by the financial crisis and accepting people they would have rejected in the past, just like the military services are doing.
there needs to be MUCH greater pyschological testing of law enforcement recruits before people are put into such positions of ‘authority’.
CasualObserver October 31st, 2009 at 6:37 pm
5
Digby has had some good blogging on this–many blogs centered on abuse of tasers and abuse by law enforcement.
common practice you say? thruout the force you say? According to the news-both TV and local(and yes I also live in Texas, not Dallas, but in Texas)-only 28 tickets were issued in 3 years. Not quite a “common practice” hmmm?Hyperbole by anyone is a very nasty practice, that being said, millions of people carry guns daily and do not commit crimes. Nor are the “streets running red with blood” as so very many anti gun people predicted would happen if CCW licenses were allowed. In point of fact, several times each month a person carrying a gun legally has saved the life of the “innocent bystander” or of a LEO(a cop)yet never do we hear or read anything about this.(except in local newpapers) Just like how many cops use tazers every day to save lives, yet it is only the very few excessive uses that ever see the light of day.
“Silence is consent” is a rhetorical argument that has NO PRACTICAL BASIS in the real world.
You don’t know what goes on in anyone else’s head. And yet you can claim, with certainty, that because they aren’t pissing off the bosses (mind you, the SAME bosses who decide what shifts they work and what beats they patrol) they must condone the behavior of their fellow officers.
That’s what makes it crap.
ACLU and Tasers
Unregulated Use of Taser Stun Guns Threatens Lives, ACLU of Northern California Study Finds (10/6/2005)
http://www.aclu.org/police/abuse/19977prs20051006.html
ACLU of Wisconsin Says Taser Death Demonstrates Need to Restrict Police Use of Potentially Lethal Weapons
http://www.aclu.org/police/abuse/26177prs20060717.html
Boulder ACLU wants Tasers holstered, cites heart attack risk
http://www.topix.com/news/aclu/2009/10/boulder-aclu-wants-tasers-holstered-cites-heart-attack-risk
You really should respond to my response @ 37 to your nonsensical comment @ 32 before you write another word about this issue.
Otherwise, you could just be quiet and stop embarrassing yourself.
Take the time to watch that you tube clip of the one marked
“Police over react with Taser gun”
the mother gets out of the car to protest the use of the taser and they pepper spray her.
the fellow covering this announces “that this is a bit of a demonstration of America’s foreign policy”
Nails it
and your point is what exactly? That abuses occur? I freely admit that. AI also has a report out somewhere that shows how gun deaths in america are really really bad. So what. Tazers exist. People use them legally and of course someone will always use tham illegally. It happens. So we should do what? Make sure that the only way that police have of stopping someone is to use lethal force? Is that what you would rather see? Sorry, but the way that I see it is that until something better comes along, police depts will continue to use it. Your argument is that it can kill people and has been misused. So has every other weapon. The tazer was designed to be a non lethal weapon. It is sold OTC in a great many countries with very strict gun control laws. Again, if the tazer is taken away from police forces then what? Do we then go back to just shooting them?
No, “qui tacit, consentire videtur” is a basic political and legal principle.
A person who keeps silent is presumed to give consent politically, just as a person who has knowledge of a crime but withholds his or her knowledge about the crime is presumed to approve of the crime.
So, what about my response to you @ 20 that a police officer who is qualified and professional probably would agree that Tasers are dangerous weapons and that they are, in fact, totally unecessary additions to the tools that police officers have had for decades prior to the invention of Tasers and other stun devices?
Feel free to respond to the substance of my comment, that is if you’re not done embarrassing yourself by spouting nonsense.
And does that report mention how many times in that same time period that a tazer was used and no one died? One stat is useless without the other, no?
Digby has been On This and On Topic, yesterday, and for a long time.
Firearms are considered lethal. Tasers are not. Thus, the big f*cking difference. Firearms are used when appropriate. Tasers often are not. This is not all that confusing, though you are trying to confuse the issue as if you were a really badly informed and rhetorically challenged spokesperson for the Taser manufacturers.
Really, stop embarrassing yourself.
I have no idea of how many times tasers have been used. But doesn’t it say anything at all to you that the so-called non-lethal tool causes so many deaths?
It seems to have become a first resort for at least a few lazy cops that don’t actually want to take the time to defuse a situation but go immediately to the “I’ll control this by shocking the hell out of this guy p*ssing me off”
Note: I received LE training while in the USAF as a secondary skill and have friends at all levels of Law Enforcement. Most all of them are as horrified by the actions of the few as we are.
At this point all I want to do is forget I ever got involved in this. Because obviously you’re right, I’m wrong and that’s the end of it.
So you have asked LEOs this question and this is how they responded? Or is this something that you think that a LEO-law enforcement officer-would think? I would like to see some kind of proof to back up your claim. A study perhaps?
My problem with tasers is the number of times cops have used them for apparently unjustified reasons. I’ve read accounts of “suspects” being zapped while already in custody.
Last year a BART cop shot a citizen dead who was already lying facedown on the station platform. One excuse offered was that the cop “thought he was reaching for his taser.”
WTF?
what “claim”?
those are called links to the ACLU and the Boulder ACLU.
And then there was the incident with the student (”don’t tase me, bro!”) not long ago.
How that “zapping” could conform with any use-of-force policy I’d like to know.
Sorry – I did not see your post b4 i posted mine.
Anyhow, here is a link to a better Digby post sitting in for Glenzilla and Very On Topic.
I do not disagree with you about the idiots who shock people over and over. 39 deaths over 9 months could be excessive, however I have no idea how many times in total tazers were used. If any tool is misused it can cause harm or death and to me a tazer is a tool. Subject to misuse as any other. We also do not know of underlying medical causes for the deaths. You had AF LEO training, so you have some idea about the many facets in a LEO daily job. In many cases, esp domestic violence, if the choice is shoot or tazer, how would you respond? You have perhaps 1-3 seconds to decide. Either way someone might die, but if you shoot that person the chances are much greater. Just as a BTW, my father was killed during a domvio incident way back in the early 1950s, he hesitated to shoot because he knew what would happen to the family if he did.(lets start with losing the “breadwinner” and their house and going on from there, we are talking a small town of about 2500) He did not have the “non lethal” weapon available. He was carrying his 12 gauge pump shotgun and had chambered a round-a very distinctive sound, no? One that I used when on guard duty to stop someone from breaking into the facility that I was guarding. If I had had a tazer, I would have used it.If my choice was tazer or shooting I know what I would do. Because I have killed someone and would rather never have to do it again.
So, I ask for proof about what you say the LEOs would say and you just point to some ACLU links and then, rather like you have done with others in this discussion, insult me rather than actually respond to my question. Insult away, it reflects more on you than it does on me.
That’s OK. I’d merely brought over comments from when the diary first appeared yesterday. They’d gotten lost when the diary reappeared with title changes. Thanks for the link to Digby.
I haven’t pointed to any ACLU links, but I did provide links to sites that document excessive, abusive and totally unnecessary uses of Tasers.
You might want to look at the evidence in those links.
So you think that this discussion can and should be reduced to how many LEOs who get off by tasering people – women, children, and other unarmed civilians – that you can provide versus how many professional and qualified LEOs who would agree that Tasers are dangerous weapons and that they are, in fact, totally unnecessary additions to the tools that police officers have had for decades prior to the invention of Tasers and other stun devices that I can provide?
That’s what you want to reduce this discussion to?
Excellent. I’ll just concede the point that you can definitely find police officers who have unnecessarily tasered people and would love the opportunity to justify their use of Tasers.
We can all look HERE and HERE for evidence that you can find assholish and unqualified police officers who would agree with you.
What’s your point?
We’re working on legislators to support a bill banning the sale and use of electric-shock weapons here in Vermont, and feel confident we’ll have a draft cut by the start of the next session.
Let the cops bring their rationales; it’s long past time we have this fight out in the open.
Let’s begin.
I hear that argument (”most of them are not abusive”) about feminists too. My answer is the same either way. If the majority of cops are not corrupt then how come the corrupt ones are not kicked out of the force? How come they are inevitably protected by the rest of the supposedly “good cops”?
That’s what I would refer to as a statement too cogent for public discourse.
On the right, abortion is murder.
On the left, meat and fur are murder.
But zapping someone to death without a charge (in the legal, not electrical sense /s) – in most cases without even a warning and in some without the cop even identifying themselves – is for some reason not.
OK, I’m a police officer, and a supervisor to boot. Here’s my take on it.
One: Tasers are considered less than lethal, and fall on the Use Of Force continuim at the same place baton strikes do. So they are not, repeat, not a substitute for deadly force. But as Knoxville points out, perhaps that should be reconsidered, given the number of deaths attributed to the weapon.
My department doesn’t use them outside of SWAT, and I’m quite glad of that. I was talking with an instructor who was amazed that we don’t carry them. Her comment to me was, “Wow, that’s hard to believe. I taze everyone.”
Which leads me to believe that the weapon is deployed far to often and in situations where its deployment is unwarrented.
Training, or the lack thereof, is a huge problem. Training costs money. Money=taxes, and you can bet where the politicians stand on that.
Remember Senator Kerry speaking to students in Florida, when a student who had been in line, asked why Kerry didn’t fight election results in Ohio which were fradulent. The student’s only weapon was a book by Gregg Palast, yet multiple campus police wrestled the student to the ground and tasered him, and as I recall, he was tasered more than once. It is all about intimidation and power, and is a crime.
Remember that since military recruiters were having tough time getting their numbers, they tended to overlook criminal or gang background and we’ve sent unsavory characters to fight in the MidEast. When soldiers come back from wars where torture was acceptable, the jobs that fit their background and experience are likely law enforcement or the blackwater mercenary complex. They likely won’t have the same inhibitions and restraints as a “Mayberry Cop” would have.