Alan Grayson appeared on Keith Olbermann’s show this evening defending the House compromise health care reform bill presented last week by Nancy Pelosi. In a repeat performance of his interview on Ed Schultz’s show a few days back Alan gave us his interpretation of the bill. Here are a few quotes from his answers to KO’s questions, along with my own comments after each one.
”. . . the main thing is that we have to save American lives. . . .”
I couldn’t agree more. Alan and I agree that nearly 45,000 Americans die every year because they lack health insurance. But Alan never says that the House bill he supports, as currently written will save only roughly 14,000 of those lives annually between now and 2013, and only 34,000 per year even when the House reform is in full swing after 2015, and that according to CBO forecasts it will never reduce the annual death toll to less than 11,000.
”. . . there’s 122 Americans dying every day because they have no health care . . . “
This is true, but Alan doesn’t say to KO, or to us, that in the 3+ years of the band-aid period there will be 85 Americans dying every day, and even when the bill is fully implemented, there will still be 30 Americans dying every day due to lack of insurance. This bill that Alan Grayson is so quick to support will not eliminate the problem of dying Americans due to lack of health insurance in the next 3+ years. Nor will it do that even in the 7 years after that, or ever, according to CBO forecasts.
”There are hundreds and hundreds of people in Connecticut who will live if this bill passes, and will die if it doesn’t. . . .”
The population of Connecticut is roughly 3.5 million. Roughly 10%, or 350,000 are uninsured. Of these, about 350 will die each year due to lack of insurance without any reform. If the House bill passes, then in the Band-aid period, 241 people will still die, and when the reform is in full swing, 86 Americans from Connecticut each year will still die. So Alan is way off, unless his statement is taken to apply to a ten year period, then there will be hundreds and hundreds saved, but also even more hundreds and hundreds will die, needlessly, because of the House’s failure to legislate an end to these deaths.
”The Democratic defense play is to tell the Republicans: stop lying!”
The Republicans do need to stop lying. Listening to them is often like listening to a fairy tale, and what is even more irritating is that Republicans seem to have elevated lying to a fundamental principle of politics, as if they had all internalized Plato’s doctrine of the noble lie, and forgotten how dependent the health of American Democracy is on at least a modicum of honesty when faced with reality. Unfortunately, the Democrats and Mr. Grayson himself are often less than scrupulous when it comes to stretching the truth. We have seen that in the “bait-and-switch” campaign for a public option-led health care reform. And we see it now in the Democrats celebration of the House’s very flawed proposed bill, as a milestone accomplishment, when, in fact, it is largely a sell-out to the insurance industry that doesn’t eliminate deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures due to health insurance, and also does almost nothing to contain costs, while it provides the insurance companies with a huge expansion of their revenue. The Democrats celebration of this bill is nothing but spin – in the older more direct vernacular, it is nothing but a lie.
”. . . We’re close to the end of this long, long, road to universal, affordable, comprehensive health care in America.”
I can’t believe that Alan said that. The House bill won’t produce universal health insurance. Even after the band-aid period is over, it will leave 11,000,000 Americans uninsured. The health plan for them will be “if you get sick, die quickly.”
As far as “affordable” is concerned, what is “affordable” will be defined by a Congress which is already far more concerned about deficit neutrality, then they are about universal health care. Also, the health care subsidies provided in the bill, are not tied by the legislation to inflation in private insurance premiums. So, as the years pass, this bill will provide mandates for individuals to buy insurance, but subsidies that are inadequate to fund private sector premiums. This situation may even exist in 2013, since the lack of price controls in the bill almost guarantees that by the time the exchange is operative, insurance premiums will have risen 40-50% over today’s prices.
As far as “comprehensive” is concerned. It is doubtful that the bill will cover abortion in the public plan. Also, since the public plan will have to compete on a level playing field with private insurance plans, it is doubtful that the public plan will be able to cover more than the private plans and also compete successfully with them.
So, it appears that the House bill will produce neither universal, nor affordable, nor comprehensive coverage for all Americans. The attempts of Alan Grayson and the House Democrats to over-sell Nancy Pelosi’s bill are both foolish and counter-productive. Some people may be fooled into thinking that this bill is the major accomplishment they say it is. This evening KO was certainly very accepting of Alan’s interpretation, as Ed Schultz was last week. But by today, Ed was asking some tough questions of guests on his show about the bill. He clearly has already begun to question the Democrats “happy talk” about it. If the bill or even a weaker one passes, the happy talk won’t last long, and the insistence that the health care reform, while far from perfect, is a great accomplishment of Democrats and progressives will give way to the continued reality of deaths, bankruptcies, foreclosures and rising insurance and medical costs. In the end the public will blame the Democrats for this sad excuse of a reform bill, not praise them.
(Also posted at firedoglake.com where there may be more comments)





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thanks for the grayson watch letsgetitdone. what a disappointment grayson is… and one more lesson in the school of “watch what they do, not what they say.”
p.s. with matt stoller working for him, i don’t believe grayson’s performance is a mistake based on a misunderstanding of the bill. he knows what he’s doing.
Thanks, selise. I suspect that he does and that he’s just doing bait-and-switch. It’s really disappointing. Pelosi must have offered him something. meanwhile Jane’s helping him raise a bunch of money and so is Chris Bowers.
After watching grayson last night on Keef, describing him as “disingenuous” is being extremely generous. Had I had any inclination to make a donation to him, “no way, no time, no how!” is that guy getting cent one from my pocketbook.
Sure, he’s great fun to watch when he produces one of his cute little sound bites out of the rethug hide, but anyone who lies so blatantly is *never* to be trusted. In some respects, he seems much like liarman…….”Look at MEEEEEEE!”
Jeezus!
Numb-skulls comparing Alan Grayson to Joe Lieberman! What next?
The next title in this series of diaries should be…
or…
He’s just towing the company line, its not what he feels overall. Don’t mistake his admission of this historic moment (which it is) that this is a “better than nothing at all” bill and he’s been told to get in line with the push forward.
I need to push for the most important changes if we’re not going to get all Americans Covered then we need to make sure at least the liberal States will pass Single Payer to show the way forward.
TR Reid has been right all along
matt stoller is their friend. maybe that unconsciously biases them? i know it would me.
thanks Waccamaw, it is good to have second and third opinions as i don’t have cable and can’t watch for myself (although i do have an opinion from watching him in committee hearings).
— T.R. Reid, 10/31/2009, here at book salon
i thought you hated the individual mandates? now you like them just because grayson is promoting them?
It seems such a weak argument no matter how you slice it, if all this is based on is insurance coverage. Being insured, particularly under the regime in the U.S., does not guarantee you’ll be any better off. The particulars of the insurance provided needs to be included in the equation before one can decide how well people survive with the insurance they wind up with as a result of the so-called reform.
People are being dragged into a insurance-dominated regime they are definitely not going to like at all when they realize how little serves their needs. There is absolutely no change to believe in here.
People need instead to ratchet up the push for universal, single-payer (to the providers) health care that entails not reform of what’s permanently broken, but a total sea-change that introduces whole new system that actually meets the needs of everyone from day one.
From what I understand state-by-state is the way Canada changed over to single payer (or provence-by-provence). Other non-single payer provences saw the benefits and changed over. They have a lot less people, they don’t have as many provences as we have states, and their provences are huge. So perhaps here in the U.S. when more people benefit in a state, the change would come quicker when other states see the benefit? I ask this as a question because population is not the whole answer I am sure but it seems like the amount of people benefitting would make a large impact when a state became single payer. I am just wondering…
As for Greyson, he is my hero but I disagree with him too on accepting this legislation. However perhaps he sees it as a “segue” to what we want in the end. After all Medicare and Social Security had to be “revamped” several times to tweak its benefits.
However the last “tweak” given to Social Security was taking Welfare out from under its entitlements for all Americans and making this valuable Safety Net feature into a “choice” for the legislature funding it. With the shattering of the middle class falling down into poverty, the tattering of the Safety Net began from there, and now its terrible lack causes a great deal more suffering as more people scramble for the tiny sliver of the fiscal pie that is left over for the poor.
Stats now say that 50% of our kids will receive food stamp benefits in their childhood. Unlike welfare, foodstamps haven’t been messed with much except to add a little more for a family or individual, but still, food security is not enough. There is so much more that should be done for family security that was “re-vamped” away; support for energy costs, transportation situtations, child care, housing …
Greyson has been an economist and I can dig his experience all right. But if he thinks this sorry health bill is a “segue” then he has a lot more faith in the legislature and in Democrats than I do. It was a different time with the enactments of Social Security and then its subsequent tweaks. One being that while I am sure former law makers were on the take with corporations, they did not have to raise so many millions in order to win an elections.
I am a lifelong liberal and straight-ticket Democrat, coming out of the WOBBLIES in my family history. Over the years my enthusiasm for Democrats is waning, though I will stick with them. However, I am still skeptical they will do the right things when the temptations for riches is dangled in front of their noses. Leiberman’s turn coati-ness and obvious greed is just less hidden, this is is what I think. If this health bill is a “segue” then please GOD find a way into real campaign finance and then maybe it will be but I don’t think that will be in the cards for somone who is reaping millions for their votes…
My 2 cents
Cat In Seattle
Since I just got a Grayson fundraising letter from the “access bloggers” at Open Left, I thought I’d better check into Grayson’s record…. His committee assignments aren’t even on his site! Although links to two (2) versions of his official portrait are. Say no more…
Er, to whom I are you responding? I don’t see that comparison in Letsgetitdone’s comment. Perhaps you could keep on topic?
The relationships don’t matter, except to them. The only thing that matters is policy and what it’s based on. Do note the unwillingness of 2+2 Mr Freeze to discuss substance; seems to me that that lesson access bloggers have learned from promoting [a|the] [strong|robust]? [Federalist]? public [health insurance]? [option|plan] is that consent can be manufactured as easily by “progressives” as anyone else with a seat at the table in Versailles. Yay!
We have all bought it, hook, line and sinker. My father, a Republican forever until this last election, has been saying for years that there is no difference between the Dems and the Repubs. After following the recent debates and watching the bills coming through, I have to agree with him. As long as Insurance companies are in the mix with any federal healthcare bill, we the people will get screwed. There may be 5 or 6 elected officials in Congress that can’t be bought, if the price is right.
I remember a book called “This Perfect Day” where the populace was basically drugged into benign compliance. Through our insatiable consumption we have reached that point. There is no such thing as the white picket fence family anymore. Multi-income streams are basically required to simply live with our addictions, and we are all tired… painfully tired of the same old rhetoric and getting beaten up. They have bred complacency and inadequacy into our daily lives and replaced community involvement with Viagra and Cialis. It is so sad. The most important thing in our pathetic lives is getting a woody.
If we can’t get the Walmart, video game, Cialis crowd involved, we all lose. The challenge is that they already believe we lost.
Hi Jacob, first of all only one person compared Alan to Joe Lieberman, and I haven’t tried to create any such false equivalence. But secondly, and far more importantly, if you have anything to offer that questions the details of my argument about the variance of Grayson’s statements from the facts, I’d certainly appreciate being corrected. Otherwise, I’ll just conclude that you have nothing to offer here except a politically motivated name-calling defense of blatant dishonesty by Grayson.
Your comment illustrates one of the primary things wrong with our Democracy these days: namely that when someone is called out for bad behavior, a partisan of that person then replies by name-calling, labeling, and engaging in personal attacks to distract attention from the original issue.
The issue I raised is Alan’s blatant dishonesty and inconsistency with his earlier statements on health insurance reform. I really liked those statements and praised Grayson profusely in my first post on him a few weeks back. Now when he bullshits, I’m calling bullshit on him. When he does good again, I’ll shift back, because in each case I’m evaluating his behavior and holding him accountable. That’s what Democracy is about; not falling into blind love with some eloquent politician.
Hi djfour, I appreciate what he’s been told. I just don’t consider it a valid excuse. If Alan’s going to present himself as the man who calls bullshit, then he has to refrain from bullshitting himself. Also, the only way in which this is a historic moment is that it’s another illustration of the impotence of this Democratic Party and, perhaps too, of the progressive movement. Look, this bill leaves 31,000 fatalities per year and creayes a structure that gives the companies greater power while failing to control costs at all. Such a bill is immoral. That’s the bottom line, not some BS about this being a historic moment because we’ve never come so far before. This bill steps forward in some ways, but it sets the stage for a great backward step, and you can’t evaluate it by ignoring its negative aspects. Don’t you see that what the Dems are now trying to do is to say “well, it’s not perfect, but blah, blah, blah?”
That’s a dishonest framing of the issue. No one said anything about a bill being perfect or not except them and their spinners. HR 676 is not perfect either. The question is whether this bill, taken as a whole is good, whether it’s a net positive or not. I say that it’s not for reasons stated above and because it has mandates and subsidies for insurance companies that don’t want to pay off when people get sick. This bill perpetuates a racket. We need to end that racket. That’s it!
Hi selise, That and also the fact that we need people like Grayson who can talk tough to Republicans. I agree we need Alan. But the Alan we need is an honest Alan, who will the truth even when it’s an inconvenient one.
Hi waccamaw, I was being a bit charitable toward Alan, while still calling bullshit. I hope his performance on this subject is just an aberration. I’m afraid it’s not though.
selise, I have the video clip posted at my own site. I couldn’t include it here, because youtube didn’t have it yet, and the blogging tool here won’t allow us to directly embed MSNBC’s code for the clip here. Anyway the link to my site is just above and you can go there and play the clip.
TR Reid is right, but that slo implies affordability, because without that there’s no real coverage, only the legal right to get it.
Hey lets, I’d watch about claiming 85 people dying during the band-aid period. You yourself said that was just a guess, I’d note that to be fair.
And that’s another reason why this bill needs to be defeated. It will give us a chance to reset and pursue this reform campaign based on something real and specific, rather than on the fungible and bogus notion of a “robust PO” that means something different every week.
pot. kettle. black. dude.
actually not. because i haven’t seen lets make a claim as fact and not either back it up or retract it when challenged.
any chance of getting a response to your previous unsubstantiated claims (including a personal smear), or am i supposed to assume you just made them up? and in case you didn’t see the rest of the thread, if i’m not mistaken it looks like you were panning the same lewin report your bosses have been using to sell the public-plan-in-a-multi-payer-market to progressives. is that correct? if so, will you either retract or at least explain why you are now panning the report as industry propaganda?
the comments are still open:
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/11991
Hi Cat, I agree with what you say and even agree that Grayson may have good reasons why he wants to support this bill. However, the issue I raised is his lying to us about what this bill will do, not so much his decision to support this bill. Of course, I disagree with that decision, but my moral outrage come from the disingenuousness I see, more that it comes from his decision.
Lambert, that’s a pretty good zinger, thanks.
well said. i agree.
thanks for the link to the video clip.
re t.r. reid quote. yes, but as he also said, in that very same comment:
Interesting perspective. I guess I think the Democrats are a bit better still. After all, there are no Russ Feingolds, Patrick Leahys, Bernie Sanderses, Sherrod Browns, Sheldon Whitehouses, or Dennis Kuciniches on the Republican side. The Democrats are only half bought and paid for. Popular movements can still dislodge them.
on bullshit
I agree Jason. The estimate is probably off, but I’ll be that if it is, it’s too low. The reason is those rising prices, and the lack of price controls in this bill. The insurance companies will very quickly erode affordability throughout the band-aid period, so that people just won’t be able to sign up, and I’m pretty sure the mandates won’t be enforced because of the public outcry against enforcement. The result will be that 16,000,000 more people won’t sign up for insurance in the band-aid period, as I’ve charitably estimated in my earlier piece evaluating the band-aid period.
Yes. Reid has it right.
Ouch!
Thanks, selise. I know Frankfurt and his distinction. My own view is that bullshit is only partly distinct from lying. That all bullshit is not out-and-out lying, but that all lying is bullshit. So, I define things a little differently from Harry.
Yeah I see that …I wonder why he is fabricating these numbers?
I LOVED the idea being floated on another blog here that suggests perhaps we should also put in funeral funding for all those people left to die. As Greyson so famouly said. Might be a good idea all right ….
:o(
Cat
Thanks Cat. That was one of my diaries also, writing up my wife’s idea.
I liked the earlier piece on the band-aid, all I’m saying is that a lot of your numbers rely on what you admit are pure guesses, especially the number of people who might be covered under the transition period. It would be nice if you noted that in pieces like this. It strengthens the argument when people understand where you’re estimating and where you’re not.
Jason, Point taken. I’ll remember in the future to emphasize that the numbers are guesses talked about in more detail in the band-aid diary. Another important point here, is that no one has yet produced a credible analysis of what is likely to happen in the transition period in terms of increasing coverage for the uninsured. What I think we need is for people to start guessing as I did, and for others to criticize those guesses and to provide alternative guesses. The criticisms combined with the alternatives will improve our collective understanding of the factors involved in producing increases or decreases in coverage over the next few years. As that understanding increases we’ll be able tyo make better guesses.
I think that establishing the high risk pool for denials and those uninsured for other reasons, and ending rescissions are certainly factors in favor of a decline in the uninsured. However, the lack of any price controls for private insurers, allowing the private insurers to charge people in the 25% more than what they charge other individuals, and the absence of subsidies and mandates are certainly factors that make it less likely that people will choose coverage in the interim period.
I think the factor of rapidly increasing insurance prices will be a major factor in driving healthy, but uninsured people, away from the pool before 2013, and perhaps also driving away people with minor preconditions who are healthy. So, think the high-risk pool will mainly pick up people who are already sick, have very risky preconditions, and who can also afford to pay the increasingly exorbitant prices will see for high risk individuals There are 47,000,000 uninsured now. How many do you think will fit into this last category? I’ve guessed it at 16,000,000, but this may be a very high estimate since surveys (according to Alan Grayson) show that 90% of the uninsured say that they don’t have insurance now because they can’t afford it.
I don’t think folks have a responsibility to refute your guesses, but I’d agree that I want to see an analysis of the intervening period.
As for high risk pools, they are no long term solution, but they are fairly prevalent in states right now, and at least on the individual level, there are waiting periods to get in.
lets, thanks for staying on this. FYI, I dropped you a small clarifying comment at the bottom of your “Nancy’s Masterpiece” post.
Lets, I had the identical reaction you did to Grayson’s comments. I really admired Grayson’s gloves-off commentary on the Republicans’ health policy, so I was mildly bummed by his deceptive statements about the Dems’ “reform” legislation — bummed in a way that can’t happen when I’m listening to someone with a long track record of “robust PO” and similar happy talk (e.g Chuck Schumer)and thus properly steeled against disappointment.
The point you make raises an issue that has gotten no discussion in the MSM, and almost no discussion in the liberal blogosphere, which is: By what moral calculus do we support a bill that cuts the number of uninsured from 50 million to 25 million (I think that’s a good estimate of what the final bill will accomplish) and leaves 25 million people in the cold indefinitely? By what moral calculus do we urge progressives to support legislation that strengthens the insurance industry with enormous infusions of tax subsidies and premium payments (an industry that would otherwise die a long slow death) when we know or should know doing that will make it harder to insure the 25 million people we left out in the cold, and will probably guarantee that the 25 million people we thought we insured will shrink as costs continue to creep up?
And while I’m at it, by what moral calculus do we support a bill that does all that AND snuffs out the single-payer movement at the state level? I don’t know for sure that that’s what will happen if the Kucinich amendment (which allows states to implement single-payer systems) is not included in the Dems’ “reform” bill. The legal issues are quite complicated. But the risk is there, otherwise Kucinich would not have thought it necessary to offer his amendment (which Pelosi has now stripped out, I hear).
If all Democrats care about is the success of the party in the 2010, 2012, and 2014 elections — never mind the suffering of the 25 million uninsured, never mind the financial suffering of tens of millions due to the failure of the Dems’ bill to cut costs — they will strip the worst pieces out of their “reform” bill (the individual mandate and the huge subsidies for the bloated insurance industry)and pass the rest and declare victory. I don’t care if they pass their microscopic PO. All I care about is that they don’t use the un-robust PO as an excuse to vote for an insurance industry bailout and the destruction of the state-level single-payer movement.
Kip Sullivan
Did I say they had a responsibility? I think what I said is competing guesses and criticisms is what we need to advance this discussion rather than just pointing to doubts, and leaving it at that.
As I read the bill there’s a 6 month waiting period in it. The implication of that is that the uninsured levels will be reduced only slowly until 2013. At 45,000 fatalities per year that is a significant sign that this bill is a moral failure.
Thanks ralph, I’ll check it out.
I couldn’t agree more Kip. You expressed the main point very well, as usual. And I’m with you on what they pass also. I’d be happy and consider it a victory if they got rid of rescissions, denials of preconditions, and other abuses, and left us free to take matters up again next year. I’d celebrate that and get on with building the single-payer movement.
There’s a good discussion going on these same issues at fairleft’s diary including some criticism of my analysis of inflation above. Take a look. the discussion is good.
Lying requires out and out falsehoods. A talented bullshitter, on the other hand, can bullshit effectively without uttering a single lie.
Right. That’s why bullshit is the set, and lies are the subset.
Ah, so interim concessions are morally justified for this year, if you can claim the opportunity to fight for more progress later?
If that is the principle you accept — and it seems reasonable — then I don’t know what’s left of your central complaint about Grayson, whom you essentially imply is being morally indifferent to leaving 25 million uninsured, while insuring only the other 25 million.
Grayson seems to be willing to fight for the first 25 million now (or maybe it’s 36 million), because he thinks, rightly or wrongly, that that is the best he can get from this Congress and this White House. I don’t know how to test the matter empirically.
I recall a few months back when the Dems were praised for getting another 4 or 5 million uninsured children under SCHIP, while still leaving out several million others. Our perpectives have changed about what’s acceptable, even though it’s not clear that what’s achievable in this mostly dysfunctional government has improved a bit.
Thanks Scarecrow, I think this is a good point, but I don’t agree. Here are my reasons.
You said:
First, I don’t think it’s about just claiming the opportunity to come back for more progress later. It’s about actually having that opportunity and not compromising it by making false claims about the compromise one is accepting in the present, and by accepting a compromise that appears to undercut the likelihood of further reform in the short run. I’d accept a regulatory bill banning the worst insurance company abuses, because (1) it improves the current situation without (2) pretending that it is anything but the first step toward more comprehensive reform, and will save some lives.
That kind of compromise leaves the way open to coming back next year for Medicare for All, or a Jacob Hacker-type of public option, and/or mandates and subsidies enacted in a context that is favorable to bringing the insurance companies under control in the short term, or moving them out of the activity of insuring essential care completely, because there can be no pretense that the crisis is over, or the problem solved, or that we have accomplished something historic. In short, the kind of compromise I advocate cries out for more legislation in the next session to stop more deaths, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, and so sets the table for that legislation.
On the other hand, what Grayson is doing is supporting a bill that will take years to implement, claims to be a comprehensive health care reform bill so that the very terms of its passage create a bias against having any more reform for perhaps 6 years, turns massive increased Government revenue over to the insurance companies without controlling premium increases, and has a band-aid period during which (1) roughly 1/3 of the lives at stake would be saved while foreclosing the possibility that anymore of those lives could be saved by Government programs during that roughly 3.5 year period, and (2) premium costs will likely increase by as much as 40%-50%, making insurance increasingly unaffordable as the band-aid period wears on for those who benefited from the rescission and high-risk pool changes, as well as for others.
Second, in addition to supporting a bill that constrains and perhaps forecloses the political possibility of further improvement in the short run, Alan Grayson was disingenuous about it. He framed it as a bill that is not perfect but that would provide universal, affordable, and comprehensive health insurance coverage for all Americans. This is false on its face, and if people were to believe Grayson when he says this, then why would there be any need for further reform at all? Why would the Democrats have to revisit the issue again? Why couldn’t they just say, well, let’s wait until we see how it works when it’s fully implemented in 2015? I think they could, and would, and that we would not undertake a good reform again until late in the next decade if we were lucky.
I think it’s immoral to set up a situation like that and then to tell tales about what it does, as well as being politically stupid for Democrats. The consequences would be much better if we passed a regulatory bill removing the worst abuses to start with, and then kept the pressure on next year for Medicare for All, or another reform that would deliver universal coverage and end the deaths and bankruptcies entirely in the short run with an operative date of 2011 at the latest.
i can’t speak for lets, but my objection is not what he supports or doesn’t support, it’s the bullshit reasons he gives for why:
it’s not universal, it’s not comprehensive and while i don’t know, i’m pretty sure it’s not going to be affordable for a lot of people.
i really really hate this kind of dishonesty (*). especially about political matters of life and death. i don’t think it’s possible to describe how much damage i think it does. it undermines the public’s efforts to be informed citizens and it undermines trust in our leaders, our institutions and eventually each other. it is profoundly destructive.
* note: honest mistakes of course are something else entirely.
i see it as quite different to the present situation because, to my knowledge, getting another 4 or 5 million uninsured children under SCHIP didn’t put the children left out, or the children already on their family’s private insurance in a worse position.
it’s different now because there are people who are going to be harmed as well as helped by the current legislation.
and, of course, what makes me so furious about this is that we don’t need to be making this kind of decision about who lives and who dies. it’s completely unnecessary. it’s not like there aren’t policy solutions that work to provide universal healthcare and cost control.
It’s destructive of Democracy and it’s copying the Republican playbook, alright.
And it’s also not like we didn’t have a very good chance of success with those. Imagine if the President had begun this year by supporting HR 676 and by designing a big Congressional push to get it through. The Republicans would have had a really tough time running against Medicarefor All. The main issue would have been Medicare cost containment, which Dems could have blamed largely on Bush. We would have had reform done by the end of June. We’d be nearly out from under the insurance companies. Obama would be 10 points more popular than he is today. And most importantly, we’d be looking at major job creation per teh California Nurses Association study.
don’t know what do to, except to try to fight back (asking questions, calling it out, etc)
One of several problems I have with this reasoning is that it assumes that what you want to achieve is achievable and will be achieved exactly as you want. There’s no basis for assuming any of this will happen.
Given where we are, you say you’d settle for limited desirable reforms this year, but you don’t offer any of the structure for achieving that — e.g.,., you can’t simply impose guaranteed issue on private insurers and say “we’re done for this year; you must also deal with free riding, which means you have to have a mandate, which means you have to pay some enforcement mechanism, penalties, and you’ll need subsidies, and thus revenue sources, and so on.
And this is Congress and you don’t get to cherry pick your results. It comes as a bundled mess, always.
You apparently assume that because you want X to happen and X is a good idea, we can do X this year and do Y and Z next year. And after you assume away the hardest part, you then claim moral superiority for your solution. But the world doesn’t jump to your or my commands — or more to the point, even if you are totally correct on the merits and logic, it doesn’t mean you win. Being right isn’t enough.
There’s no basis for believing we could accomplish your X this year, let alone your Y and Z next year before the mid-terms.
I agree Grayson is not correct to claim “universal coverage” under the bill. But Grayson knows that, so why would he say it? He’s in the middle of a brutal political war against people who claim government should have no role in solving this problem and who are willing to say government is out to kill old people. He’s taken on the role of the counter-puncher — one liners, zingers, and he’s not the guy you should look to for nuanced, detailed statements with all the appropriate caveats. That’s why your attack on him is unfortunate.
If I made overblown statements about universality, you should criticize me, because I do try to deal with the nuances. But this guy is like a lead blocker; you don’t criticize him for how hard he hits or how unsubtle he is in doing it.
Scarecrow,
Gee, where do I start? I guess at the beginning.
I don’t think I assume that Scarecrow. Why do you think so?
It’s true that I can’t simply impose guaranteed issue on private insurers. But I don’t know why the Democrats in Congress can’t. That is, I don’t know why the progressives in the House can’t simply block any reform bill and when asked what they need to get a bill why they can’t just reply with the three-step strategy I outlined a few months back. If the other Dems sat, we can’t swallow that, then I don’t see why the progressives can’t just say, well OK then we’d be willing to vote for a minimalist regulatory bill, then ends rescissions, preconditions, and other insurance company abuses. Do you think that if such a bill were introduced by the leadership, that enough Democrats in the House would vote against such a bill to defeat it? I don’t. I don’t see what rationalizations blue dogs could give for voting against such a bill and still expect to survive in their districts. What would they say, we won’t vote for this because it doesn’t address free riding, mandates, and subsidies? All the other Democrats have to say is that we’ll handle those things next year in the context of other issues. For now, let’s just end the abuses, so people can get insurance and get care. What will the blue dogs reply with then? That’s not fair to the insurance companies? Too bad! One of the lessons of yesterday’s electuions is that people want Government to do something for them for a change. They don’t care whether it’s fair to the insurance companies.
I’m sorry. I don’t accept this as either a law of Congress or a law of nature. It’s Congress that chooses to act that way/. They bear the responsibility for the their own messes. If you’re arguing that they can’t do moral things because they always produce messes, I’ll agree as far as that goes, but I’ll go further and say on health care it’s up to Reid and Pelosi to manage those bills so they’re not messes. Reid can get rid of the filibuster if he needs to. But a bill like that can be done with the right leadership. It’s their obligation to at least do something like this and I won’t quit condemning them if they pass a mess or a bill that I think is immoral instead. And the more people that did that, the elss likely it would be that all we would get would messes out of them. Look at that 1990 page bill. It is not a legislative construct. It is a farce, and reflects only the mess that Congress is today.
True. So what are you saying? That we should stop telling them what’s right and stop telling them what our preferences are among a set of alternative bills? What we need is continuous evaluation of what they do, we don’t need analyses that keep giving them passes because those analyses accept the frames and perceptions of Congress people about what is possible and what is not.
The kinds of things I’ve been advocating here are perfectly possible in the sense that they are within the authority of Congress to do. So, if Congress and the Democrats don’t do them I want to hold them accountable for that, not say “well those really can’t be done because that’s not the way Congress works.” They can change the way Congress works, so they are responsible for the way Congress works, and it is part of their obligation to do the right things to change the way Congress works so they can do the right things. We need to hold them to that obligation.
You next say:
I don’t know what you mean by that, Scarecrow. Democrats can propose and pass a regulatory bill this year if they want to do that. Progressives may be able to make them want to if they refuse to pass Pelosi’s bill on the table now. These things are possible. I agree that they are not probable. But I am not talking about probability here. I am talking about what can be done and what people therefore have an obligation to do.
Progressives have an obligation to prevent Pelosi’s bill from passing for the reasons I previously outlined. So, let them block that bill to begin with, and then let them offer the alternatives I mentioned earlier about what they would accept, and then stick it to the Administration until the blue dogs and the President are willing to pass a better bill than Pelosi’s. If they do that, I’ll bet that all of a sudden the probability of passing one or more of the alternatives I mentioned will go shooting up.
And next you said:
I’m sorry, Scarecrow. I find this part of your reply very cynical and quite unacceptable Politics ain’t beanbag, but it ain’t football either. Claiming that Pelosi’s bill ;produces universal coverage is not ignoring a nuance. It is telling a lie. We have far too many lies and exaggerations in our politics. They are corroding our democracy. One of the requirements of open societies is a modicum of honesty, so that there can be a modicum of trust in what people say. We don’t need to excuse lies when we hear them, or give people passes because they are “lead blockers.” We need to condemn them when we see or hear them, and make politicians who lie pay a price. We need to do this when the person being disingenuous is Alan Grayson, Nancy Pelosi, or Barack Obama, just as we should do it when the liars are Miych McConnell, John McCain, John Boehner, Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Virginia Fox, Rush Limbaugh, or Glenn Beck. We have to get them to cut out the bullshit, and get back to serious political debate where the participants adhere to minimum standards of truth at least. The views you’ve just stated are all about just accepting the dishonesty that pervades our politics and playing at it ourselves. If we do that we will keep contributing to the increasing illegitimacy of our political system within the public at large. The end of that path is that people will no longer care about democracy and they will trade it in for the false promises made by the first authoritarian demagogue to come along. Why do you suppose it is that people can’t perceive that Sarah Palin is a liar who will tell them anything? Could it be that they don’t see that much difference between her messages and those of many other more respectable politicians?
This has been a long reply, and it’s apparent that we disagree on any number of things. But if I had t point to the one thing where I think we disagree the most, I think it’s in the framing of how one should approach politics and working for political change. You seem to work from a position which just accepts as the context of your views, the way the major players in the political system look at possibility — what can be done or what can’t be done, and then you evaluate people based on what they do or don’t do within these constraints. My approach on the other hand is to accept as context what is actually legally possible within the political system given its structure and rules, and then I evaluate the actions of people in that context. I know you see me as unrealistic and unpragmatic. That’s fine, because I view you, and others here as well, as accepting a kind of narrow pragmatism that will often underachieve, and even fail to offer real solutions problems because it is constrained by a framing of what is possible which is inaccurate because it always views the future as necessarily like the past.
You blogs on health care are the best on this site when it comes to pure analysis, accuracy, and provision of information. And I value them highly, as I’ve indicated many times. However, generally speaking your analyses are not very normative. They don’t evaluate the politicians and their performance very much in the light of your own normative perspective. I miss that in them, because I think that analysis without evaluation and prescription is just incomplete, and that also, evaluation and prescription really can’t be kept out of these matters, so they show themselves in framing, or in side remarks, or in the issues that are not discussed. Vakue-free analysis is an impossibility, so we may as well all make our value judgments explicit and let the chips fall where they may.
Thanks for this discussion.
I think I understand your perspective, and don’t doubt your sincerity. You don’t agree with the central point I’m making, and I can’t disprove yours without a tardis, so we’ll have to leave it at that.
I’m suprised (baffled) you think my posts “don’t evaluate the politicians . . . in light of [my] own normative perspective.” I don’t think I’ve ever written a post that didn’t do that, nor am I capable of doing so, so I must not be understanding you.
The core difference — and it’s not on normative principles but, I think, rather on expectations — is that you seem to have a more optimistic view of what is politically feasible than I do. Hence, when you look at the world, there is a lower risk of saying “no” now, because there’s a higher probability that we can do better next year or so, and the tradeoff in human lives and suffering is thus worth making. I, on the other hand, am much less sanguine about what’s achievable now or then, given what I see and my view of America as being virtually ungovernable. These are opposite perspectives, and I don’t think they’re reconcilable.
It’s as though you see the merits of what could be, and that colors your view of what’s feasible and thus determines your course, and I see the difficulties of what is, and that colors my view of feasibility and strategy.
For example, I look at the current difficulty Pelosi is having in fending/buying off the anti-abortion zealots or the anti-brown people jerks, and I conclude that we’ll be lucky to get an already too compromised bill passed. You think we can get everyone covered if we just keep demanding and working for it. I hope you’re right.
I just found a blog post on ZNet, of all places, defending Grayson. I put in a short comment reminding the author that he isn’t the best pick for a leader.
http://www.zmag.org/blog/view/3920
(This link may need to be put in twice to see the post.)
Thanks Scarecrow. That was a good and fair reply, and I agree with and appeciate it. I’ll also read your posts more carefully for what I think of as normative content, and perhaps the next time we exchange I’ll be able to illustrate what I mean better than I can now.
Neither of us has a Tardis, so, as you say, we’ll just have to wait and see. I do have the feeling that times have changed and that politics has more possibility now than it has had in a long time. There is, every once in awhile, a “liberal hour.” I guess we both hope that this is the beginning of it, and that by pushing and pushing we can get a lot of things done before it passes again.
Thanks khin, I’ll take a look.
not for how hard he hits for for how unsubtle he is in doing it. i’m ok with all that — even if his opinions are different than mine. it’s the dishonestly i have zero tolerance for. we rightly call out our political enemies when they say something untrue and we should do the same for our political allies. if it was an honest mistake, they will appreciate the correction and refrain from similar in the future. but if it wasn’t an honest mistake, then they are not my political ally. misundertandings, mistakes. etc happen all the time and are not a big deal. dishonest attempts to mislead are poison to political discourse.