Awesome.

that will put the fear of bankruptcy in their heart, imagine if they could no longer call themselves a religion but a club

They are not a religion but an evil anti-Christian cult. They have historically been run out of every place they tried to settle until the reached the Great Salt Lake. Even there they murderously betrayed settlers who were just passing through. Slaughtering them after having tricked them into giving up their weapons. They are more perfidious and odious than the worst republicons. I believe it was also only within the last quarter century that they finally and grudgingly decided they would “accept” blacks.

I’m pretty sure most religions have ugly history assoiciated with it, I know mine does.

All mega church’s are now business’ with hundreds of products they sell. TAll mega churchs be taxed.

that should be all mega churchs should be taxed.

Not tall, sorry.

Very strange beliefs !!!!!

I signed!!!

Digg it here, please.

Very nice!

Signed.

Lets not forget the Moonies they supported the Mormons on this plus linking the Moonies to the Mormons will underscore their cult status.

There was a book about that I just can’t remember the title.

DUGG and signed!

THANK YOU, ElliottMillineryman Fight for Rights Project!

I love yous…maaan!

Signed with pleasure.

The problem with revising the tax code to try and cover the LDS church’s activity from Proposition 8 is it might also reduce the ability for churches to prompt their congregation to donate to “positive” propositions.

The LDS church itself did not donate a ton of money to the cause, but suggested that their congregation make the donations. If we were to remove any church’s right to suggest to their congregation to get involved in politics we’d have to remove the right of all churches to do so. There are plenty of churches (even here in Utah) that get involved in assisting the Human Rights Coalition and other “positive” political movements. I’d rather keep their right to continue to do so than take away the LDS church’s tax exempt status.

oh, no, sorry.

the tax law regarding 501 (c)(3) is rightly noted as a problem. Let’s be clear–what LDS did here was to tread on the same ground as a non-profit advocacy group, and that is not what they are.

Churches can do what they did before the law allowed them to participate in advocacy fund-raising: preach in general about loving thy neighbor and helping those less fortunate than ourselves. They should NOT be advocating legislation in any way, shape, or form. NO MORE.

Churches have a right to advocate political questions as long as they are moral issues. The LDS church stays out of all other politics, because that would cause a loss of tax exempt status. Here, the church taught that marriage was only man+woman long before Prop 8 came on the scene.

they can teach and preach what they want, they can’t contribute to a political campaign, it doesn’t matter what the reason is

Signed; won’t probably happen but at a minimum,a very large fine should be assessed.
The entire ‘religious’ aspect of politics ought to be banned.

Perris, you’re partly correct, a church cannot contribute to partisan politics nor express an opinion about them without risking tax exempt status. However, this was not partisan, it was a moral issue, which churches are allowed to speak about and contribute to according the IRS official web site. The IRS distinguishes between political activities and legislative activities (lobbying). The former is supporting a candidate, the latter is supporting legislation.

In this case the church was within bounds under current law.

Thanks to Elliot for joining with me to get this diary posted and to all the great people who sign and support this.

This is great! However, are we limiting the action to LDS? I want to see the Telegangsters get ripped by some tax-exempt status revocation, too. Right before they are stripped of their assets and shipped off to Super Max prisons.

~~~Mod Note: edited to remove references to hypothetical activities between prisoners~~~

Signed ! Hatred in the guise of religion has caused enough human rights abuses, this has to stop !

what would this mean for the churches that worked to support the rights of gays to marry in MA?

I noticed earlier when I signed FDL doesn’t get a mention beneath the name and email lines. Boo, hiss.

Dugg Es and thanks for the link!1
These religious people are now saying we all have to heal from the ordeal we just went through with prop8! WTF they stated this war and they are saying we have to heal! Are they crazy they caused this issue and now we MUST make them pay for their hate!!
Taking away their tax exempt status hits them where they thing they have it best! Because they used their religious morals to inject them into the public arena. They have violated the very reason they have the tax exemption in the first place, they are supposed to be a Religion and religion has no place in the very public place of our constitutional rights. There is supposed to be a separation of church and state so there will be freedom of religion for all citizens and includes the right ot have no religion and it is not religions place to be sticking it’s nose into the public domain of our laws.

they used their religious morals to inject them into the public arena.

i’m still not clear on what people here think about churches that organized in opposition to the lds.

Depends upon what their actions were. If they used church funds to support any measure they would at risk under IRS regs. Speaking out on social issues is not actionable. The AA churches here in FL were very active in getting the gay marriage ban amendment passed but consisted of encouraging their congregants and others to vote yes.

edit – would [be] at risk

a joint project of the ElliottMillineryman Fight for Rights

Where do I sign up to be a member of your team?

(I’m always in your corner, E and MM!)

I know how I feel, it is fine to have your religious morals but dam it keep them to yourself and don’t try to force them on the rest of us. We have the right to choose for our selves and no one should be able to force you to follow theirs or their Church’s.

i just remember reading about what happened to churches that spoke out against the war. and i want to know if folks here are signing because they don’t like the the mormons or because it was a violation of the law and if it was done by a progressive church in support of gays rights they would also be signing.

I think that the Mormon church’s actions were repellent but I’m not sure they violated any statutes.

that’s cool (btw, i agree). so long as you are not planning to defend churches who may have done the same kinds of things, except that they were working for gay rights.

I’m a little more forceful when talking to a forced birth Christian wingnut but in essence say what you’ve said. They have a right to their own beliefs. They do not have a right to force them on me or anyone else.

Naah. Just find some gay billionaire to put an initiative on the 2010 ballot to deny California recognition to Mormon marriages.

That would focus people’s minds on what’s really going on here.

I signed it. And I hope no one here feels obligated to explain why they signed or not.

They were not plotting to take away rights but trying to protect them! There IS a difference!

Signed, if there is one thing I hate it’s intolerant motherfuckers!

from the website:

Was the letter of the law violated?

We have spoken with experts on this matter, and the answer is unclear. The Mormon Church is not only a 501(c)(3), it is also a church, which grants them special rights. They are still prohibited from direct involvement in campaigns for a specific political office as well direct lobbying of legislators.

i’d like to see the legal analysis.

of course not. do think it is wrong of me to ask?

I signed it because I believe LDS used their resources, read money, to affect the outcome of an election, which is in violation of IRS regulations. If they had limited their actions to door-to-door stuff by church members and/or volunteers, etc, that’s their right.

signed and dugg. *applauds elliot & millineryman*

Boy, that third post was interesting. So what if they are anti christian?

Yes

{{{{{ ndfg }}}}}

How’re you and Al ?

Yes, they make sure of that.

They were not plotting to take away rights but trying to protect them! There IS a difference!

i think so too. but i’m not ok with different laws for different groups based solely on their politics. for example, i wouldn’t want to see only those churches who spoke out against torture or the war targeted to pay taxes because the majority didn’t support those positions.

that’s why i was asking if this was something that would be applied to all religious institutions or just the mormons.

I signed because those churches worked to take away rights they had no real right to do! And I say if they did use Church money do take away their tax exemption period!

Unless the church or church leaders contributed money to the Vote Yes on 8 campaign I don’t see a violation. More to the point I don’t see the courts addressing the question if they can avoid it.

Yep. It’s the LAW.

Music by elton john
Lyrics by bernie taupin

You tell me theres an angel in your tree
Did he say hed come to call on me
For things are getting desperate in our home
Living in the parish of the restless folks I know

Everybody now bring your family down to the riverside
Look to the east to see where the fat stock hide
Behind four walls of stone the rich man sleeps
Its time we put the flame torch to their keep

Burn down the mission
If were gonna stay alive
Watch the black smoke fly to heaven
See the red flame light the sky

Burn down the mission
Burn it down to stay alive
Its our only chance of living
Take all you need to live inside

Deep in the woods the squirrels are out today
My wife cried when they came to take me away
But what more could I do just to keep her warm
Than burn burn burn burn down the mission walls

at the risk of asking more questions… how come? isn’t that what we do here? ask questions and explain our views to each other? no one is obligated to say anything, but how and when is asking wrong?

i’m really not trying to be more obnoxious – i’m just astonished that that you think asking questions is wrong… and would like to know if i’ve done something inappropriate what exactly it is so i don’t keep doing it.

and so on and so forth and scooby dooby do wah

{{{ Petro! }}} we’re doing fine … i’m employed full-time finally and Al was putting in a lot of hours volunteering for Obama teams in Minneapolis and St Paul. Any news on your book? (like pub date?)

No only the ones who used Church money to back the taking of rights from citizens of our country. Which in my book is not their place and they should pay a price! In fact it is no ones right to try and limit or take away rights of lawful citizens. That is one of the very basic tenets of our constitution, freedom for all. On one hand we have finally put hundreds of years of bigotry behind us and on the other start anew with striping our gay/lesbian brothers and sisters rights to marry. They were not asking for religious blessings but for public blessings and rights/privileges that all the rest of us have.

I’m late getting here, but I just wanted to drive by to say thank you so much for doing this. I signed, and sent the link to several friends.

Well done!

I’ll keep sending it, ’til some lucky agent says “Yeah !” *g*

I’m moving to Phase 2 … getting a loan and publicizing my private meditation courses … wish me luck ! *g*

too bad you don’t do mediation, you could make a fortune here

I think that one way to address the Mormon church’s action would be to tie it into its long time church sanctioned racial bigotry. You would think that a religious organization with such a history would be a little more, you know, sensitive on tolerance issues.

ROFL … the fight is always within …

I think we need to start referring to them as LDSPac to drive the point home.

but the aclu has done stuff like defend the rights of the neo-nazis to march in a jewish neighborhood. maybe i’m missing something (obviously wouldn’t be the first time), but it seems to me that the content of the speech (with some exceptions) is not the issue when it comes to constitutional protections.

but this is a tax matter, so maybe it’s different.

Question posed to Thich Nhat Hanh: “You are a Vietnamese monk? Are you from the North or the South?” his response: “I am from the middle.

more bits from the link:

Because it is already illegal for churches to support candidates or lobby, we must close this loophole and make it illegal for churches to support propositions, which are for all intents and purposes identical to legislation.

We must clarify our tax law to prohibit this behavior.

Sign this petition to support the legal effort to amend our tax laws such that the Mormon Church, and other transgressing churches, would lose tax-exempt status if they continue lobbying for state propositions.

i’m more than a little confused and wish revdeb was here since she was so involved in the efforts of religious organizations in MA to support gay rights. i wonder if the proposed change would make all (or most) churches, etc unable to be tax exempt (not saying that’s a bad thing, just a big thing).

please note: no questions.

Pema Chodron says

The slogan ‘Be grateful to everyone’ is about making peace with the aspects of ourselves that we have rejected. Through doing that, we also make peace with the people we dislike. More to the point, being around people we dislike is often a catalyst for making friends with ourselves. Thus, “Be grateful to everyone.”

You are asking people here to ‘pony-up’ their rationale for signing a petition. As free as you are to do it, I hope they don’t feel obligated to reply.

I am personally offended that you ask the way you do. No one that I know would attempt to stop you, however.

Oh Oh, I know:

If we were to make a list of people we don’t like – people we find obnoxious, threatening, or worthy of contempt – we would find out a lot about those aspects of ourselves that we can’t face. If we were to come up with one word about each of the troublemakers in our lives, we would find ourselves with a list of descriptions of our own rejected qualities, which we project onto the outside world. The people who repel us unwittingly show the aspects of ourselves that we find unacceptable, which otherwise we can’t see. In traditional teachings on lojong it is put another way: other people trigger the karma that we haven’t worked out. They mirror us and give us the chance to befriend all of that ancient stuff that we carry around like a backpack full of boulders.

I think it’s well established that LDS used LDS monies to fund the initiative, into the millions iirc. It’s up to the IRS to decide their exempt status. If decided not in favour of LDS LDS can then take them to court.

It’s curious, isn’t it, that throughout the ages, the rocks of ages, and throughout all the epochs mankind has existed, in which billions of humans have worshipped deities of all manner, and proclaimed miracles of almost every sort, there has NEVER been deposited, in any collection plate, of any religion, a single unit of currency of even the paltriest value?

The correct biblical statement would more accurately command, “Give to Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to god what you have leftove. Or else.”

It’s not Jesus Saves and Moses invests,
It’s Jesus AND Moses collect.
And collect.
And collect.

the boy scouts used to use a local church for their meetings. when they wouldn’t change their polices wrt gay members we kicked them out. make a big stink about their bigotry.

meant no offense and would like to be able to avoid unintentionally giving offense in the future.

It’s curious, isn’t it, that throughout the ages, the rocks of ages, and throughout all the epochs mankind has existed, in which billions of humans have worshipped deities of all manner, and have proclaimed miracles of almost every sort, there has NEVER been deposited, in any collection plate, of any religion, a single unit of currency of even the paltriest value?

The correct biblical statement would more accurately command, “Give unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and to god what you have leftover. Or else.”

It’s not Jesus Saves and Moses invests,
It’s Jesus AND Moses collect.
And collect.
And collect.

I take exception to your interpretation of that scripture.
But, of course you can see it any way you want.
I just don’t see it that way.

but the petition is to change the law – not to judge them according to the current law. at least that is my understanding.

i’m not arguing against changing the law. i can see it might be a very good thing. but that makes it about far more than just mormons. many, many churches may be affected including those that support gay rights (although, again i’m not sure on this but will ask revdeb).

You have to separate monies from speaking out. It’s a violation of IRS regulations for a church, any church, to use its funds to affect the outcome of an election. Speaking out on social issues (not candidates – taboo) which includes, but is not limited to, encouraging church members to do whatever, organizing events but not paying for them, participating in events, marches, etc. Riverside Baptist Church, iirc, did not lose its tax exempt status because of Dr King’s “Beyond Viet Nam” speech.

Churches support bad things. Churches support good things.

Whatever, I would like to see the clear separation of church and state. Religions have their place as a social entities, but have no place in politics. Period.

I think it’s well established that LDS used LDS monies to fund the initiative, into the millions iirc. It’s up to the IRS to decide their exempt status. If decided not in favour of LDS LDS can then take them to court.

Yes, I misspoke. This was not a political race or case of lobbying a legislator so I’m not sure that it matters whether the Mormon church contributed money to the the Vote Yes on 8 campaign. Reprehensible, bigoted, yes. Illegal, no.

Well, isn’t that the very nature of religious astrology??

One can interpret horoscopically any and every word of every dogmatic proclamation in divine revelations, and find that proof for that which you precisely search.

Of what use would revelations from the divine serve otherwise ??

SD @ 78 – but the petition is to change the law. if quickhorn @ 15 is correct, wouldn’t that mean that all the actions you listed could cause a progressive church to loose it’s tax exempt status?

VG @ 77 – fine with me. but don’t think that is what SD and nahant want.

Reprehensible, bigoted, yes. Illegal, no.

i’m really confused – but i think the petition is to change the law so that it would be illegal (or at least cause a religious organization to lose tax-exempt status).

Lemme see…I cannot write off as tax-exempt contributions moneys that I contribute to political campaigns even though I may feel that the issue is a MORAL one…

But if I create a “front”…a church…and gave money to THAT, I could then use that to campaign for/against the same issue/candidate…and then write that donation off on my taxes.

So why is a) taxable, and b) not?

In essence these moneys are being used in the same manner and any contributions made through them (for the purposes of campaigning for or against a political issue) should be subject to taxation. The tax status of such organizations should also be subject to investigation if they cross over into the active promotion or opposition of particular issues by financial support.

I’m saying of course you interpret the word from your perspective. That’s how it works.
Call it what you will. I just call it acknowledging that you have your own relationship with it…the divine, the not divine, the word.

But if I create a “front”…a church…and gave money to THAT, I could then use that to campaign for/against the same issue/candidate…and then write that donation off on my taxes.

for issues but not candidates – unless i’m even more confused than i already think i am.

I was raised to think that there are three topics people don’t discuss in polite company (but, that’s a different conversation).
Politics, religion and…
hey, you wanna talk about sex?
I’m just kidding you.
What a week.
Very interesting discourse over the past few days.

we’re not polite company *g*

Ha ha ha.
Ain’t it great?
Much fondness towards you from This One.

An article in the Colorado Springs Gazette highlighted the money funneled into CA to pass Proposition 8. Here’s the link: http://www.gazette.com/article…..slComments

According to California Secretary of State’s Office records, James Dobson’s “Focus on the Family” is a top donor to backers of a California ballot initiative that would outlaw same-sex marriage,
…
“Between Dec. 2007 and July, Focus donated $448,406 to support Prop 8, with most money going to ProtectMarriage.com, a California-based coalition. Its largest donation, $250,000, came in June, one month after the court ruling.Focus is the seventh biggest donor among Prop 8 supporters, according to the California Secretary of State’s Office.

Other major donors are:
- Elsa Prince, a Focus board member ($450,000);
- American Family Association ($500,000);
- Fieldstead & Co. ($600,000);
- John Templeton Foundation ($900,000);
- National Organization for Marriage ($941,134.80).

The topTOP donor is Knights of Columbus, in New Haven, Conn., a political arm of the Catholic Church. The group has given $1.275 million in support of Proposition 8, the secretary of state’s records show.

Nonprofit groups like Focus and the American Family Association, both 501(c)3s, are legally able to donate up to 15 percent of their annual budget to lobbying efforts.”

But why can’t I then write-off contributions on issues to taxes? I can’t do this as an individual, but I can donate to a church that CAN, and then write off THAT contribution as charity?

Hmm! Maybe the left should stop creating political lobbying groups and simply create “churches”. Then we can donate away and write off the contributions as fulfilling our spiritual needs. The Church that believes that it’s a moral imperative to support High-Speed Bullet Trains, or Veterans Hospitals, or that it’s immoral to place chickens into confining spaces?

(((demi)))

but this is a tax matter, so maybe it’s different.

Bingo! That is the point.
The ACLU defending the neo-Nazis mat be odious I agree but they do have rights also and that is why the ACLU has defended their right to free speech.
But using Tax free religious funds to take away rights is a whole different matter!

LOL!

wasn’t defending the practice, just trying to understand what the current situation is and how the petition would change that. without much thinking on my part – it seems to me that at the very least it would be right to make the 15% taxable.

i think the source of my confusion is that the post is about the mormons, but the proposal would affect (i think) many other churches and it’s not clear to me (that if that is indeed the case), it was the intention of the petition writers or signers (but i’m not asking about that!).

May I take this moment to say I think it was just Evil that the Mormons in Utah poured money into the Yes on 8 vote in California. They should mind their own business. And, that’s me being mighty christian about it.
I think there needs to be some boundaries wherein only local money can fund local issues.
Not that any group should have a say in any human’s rights.
Harumph.

i don’t think the petition does what you describe – treat pro-gay rights efforts by churches differently from anti-gay rights efforts by other churches. i think they would all lose tax exempt status. but i’d like a lawyer to weigh in because i’m no lawyer.

i don’t care if they lived next door. i still hate what the mormons did.

The only good news I can report is I don’t have to drive through a 1/2 mile of yes on 8 signs on the way to my house any more.
That, and my daughter was accepted to a masters program at John Hopkins University. She called me this afternoon. Woot!
Okay, sorry, I just like my kid.

congrats to your daughter! may i ask what general area of study?

Communications.
She got her bs in poly sci from UC Santa Barbara.
Did an internship in DC.
Fell in love with the place.
Now does education and communication for a company that lobbies (I know it’s a scary word) for over the counter pharms. She educates stupid parents about how to safely give their kids cough medicine. and like that.
She did her internship report from DC on Women’s Rights To Choose.
She’s a pretty good kid.

sounds great.

off for now, “see” you later…

yes, later it shall be….

I support this petition because I don’t think churches or for that matter any 501(c)(3) groups (like the Mormons, Focus on the Family or the ACLU) should be engaged in lobbying or promoting “grassroots efforts” to promote candidates either.

But I also disagree with these efforts to promote gay marriage through judicial decisions by arguing that they deny equal protection or that laws that allow heterosexual couples to get a marriage license to get married discriminate against gays. Prop. 8 also shows that the nongay public is not buying it. I’m not either. I’ve read the Connecticutt, California and other state court decisions which try to make this case and frankly, as a lawyer, I am not convinced. I have seen many better cases for denial of equal protection go down in flames because the court was able to articulate a plausible rationale for upholding the distinction, i.e. the “discrimination.” I don’t dispute that there is discrimination against gays but whatever discrimination exists in the marriage licensing laws is no more than against hetero couples who choose not to get married with a license. The discrimination which gays complain about is discrimination which arises from the status of being “married” which is different from the license to get a marriage license. This discrimination can only be truly eliminated if laws are passed which eliminate the “status” of being married as basis for discriminating.

I know this post is asking for the furies to come down on me just as anyone who ventures any opinion favoring Palestinian rights on the West Bank is asking for denunciation as an anti-Semite. Gay rights are an emotional topic. But I’ve changed my mind on other issues when a well reasoned person shows me how I can. I am entitled to an opinion as the next person.

Maybe this whole issue could have been avoided if we passed and enforced some really tough truth in advertising laws. The Mormon’s were successful based on an ad campaign that was full of lies. (Which were repeated on the View this am, BTW. And EH wasn’t even there.) It pisses me off that the Mormon Church gets to flex some financial muscle in order to strip folks of what should be an unalienable right. Signed. Thanks for doing this.

I support this petition because I don’t think churches or for that matter any 501(c)(3) groups (like the Mormons, Focus on the Family or the ACLU) should be engaged in lobbying or promoting “grassroots efforts” to promote candidates either.

As long as you say you support it. Though I’m unfamiliar with the reasons why you would include the ACLU in this statement. They’re all about advocacy and defense of civil liberties. I also support and advocate for the Palestinians. So happy you mentioned it.

I’ve heard this a lot, and I’m interested in where it’s established that the LDS church donated millions itself. I recently found this:

http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_10842051

Which indicates the first contribution that the mormon church made (not counting members of the church, which is a very different thing) to prop 8 which is only in the low thousands. I’d be very grateful if someone could point me to something officially showing that the church itself donated large sums of money. Thanks!

Signed Elliot, thank you.

Dugg, thanks for the link.

Mormons and their church want to insist that this was all about morality. Is being legally married or not going to stop anyone from participating fully in a relationship just as they have been? Of course not! How naive do they think we all are? Married or not, gay people will continue to have sex. It was and always has been about legal rights. The Mormon Church is once again impossing their believes on everyone, member or not. The arrogance of this group is appalling. That’s what you are faced with when you have a group that is convienced that they are the only ones right and everyone one else is wrong and all other churches are an abomination.

I used to be a member of the ACLU but dropped my membership when the organization became focused on attacking Christmas displays and at the time (this was the 1970’s) seemingly trivial church/state separation issues. Now I have a hard time differentiating the ACLU from many organizations that seem atheistic or anti-Christian. A couple years ago, James Dobson was exonerated from a charge by CREW and the ACLU that Focus on the Family had engaged in partisan politics. To me, as a casual observor, that seemed to be a no brainer. But the IRS exonerated Dobson from the charge. And he bragged that he had been scrupulous in observing the IRS regs. I assume that the same regs. apply to the Mormon church. If we object to the tactics of the Mormon church and ask that its tax exemption be revoked, we also ought to be open to examine how those tactics are also used by organizations we agree with.

From my experience, the ACLU engages in the same type of “grass roots” campaigning for issues which it defines as “First Amendment issues” as Focus on the Family and the Mormon church. It may be a matter of degree. But I get emails and literature urging me to join or to contribute money or sign petitions to support various forms of legislation that have an impact on “First Amendment issues”. Is this really any different from the literature Dobson followers get from their icon? or from the tactics used by the Mormon church to promote a ballot question its members support? Just because I agree with the ACLU does not detract from my point that both organizations engage in functionally the same tactics. Can you explain to me any difference?