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	<title>Comments on: The Case for New Government Works Projects in view of Deflationary Pressure</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936</link>
	<description>Just another Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: PeteJacobsen</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14587</link>
		<dc:creator>PeteJacobsen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 02:34:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14587</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Solar Electric systems could be going up much much faster than they are because solar panels are in short supply (and are being shipped to Germany), and because tax credits for installing them run out every year about May.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;There are many small businesses capable of installing medium scale systems if the country chose to fix those two “problems”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Solar Electric systems could be going up much much faster than they are because solar panels are in short supply (and are being shipped to Germany), and because tax credits for installing them run out every year about May.</p>
<p>There are many small businesses capable of installing medium scale systems if the country chose to fix those two “problems”.</p>
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		<title>By: Robin Stelly</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14582</link>
		<dc:creator>Robin Stelly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 00:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14582</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Energy is my favorite because it recalls the American mythology of personal reinvention and innovation - we know that story and enjoy it. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’m going with health care investment as job one-A, which should not wait around while the new energy economy gets going.  Among other big ticket items, it’s going to cost a lot to get people to go along with transitioning from their jobs in the insurance industry and into something else or something similar.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Energy is my favorite because it recalls the American mythology of personal reinvention and innovation &#8211; we know that story and enjoy it. </p>
<p>I’m going with health care investment as job one-A, which should not wait around while the new energy economy gets going.  Among other big ticket items, it’s going to cost a lot to get people to go along with transitioning from their jobs in the insurance industry and into something else or something similar.</p>
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		<title>By: BooRadley</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14566</link>
		<dc:creator>BooRadley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:15:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14566</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;FWIW, I would love to see a separate structure for each specialty. While there will be some overlap at administrative levels. How unscrupulous psychiatrists try to defraud Medicaid/single payer system is usually VERY different from how unscrupulous orthopedic surgeons try to defraud. Government needs people from within each specialty advising them.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>FWIW, I would love to see a separate structure for each specialty. While there will be some overlap at administrative levels. How unscrupulous psychiatrists try to defraud Medicaid/single payer system is usually VERY different from how unscrupulous orthopedic surgeons try to defraud. Government needs people from within each specialty advising them.</p>
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		<title>By: yellowsnapdragon</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14565</link>
		<dc:creator>yellowsnapdragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:49:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14565</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;How about healthcare infrastructure to meet the needs of the newly covered under a universal system?  Not just hospitals and clinics, but medical equipment, pharma, etc will be needed to accomodate a huge increase in demand.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How about healthcare infrastructure to meet the needs of the newly covered under a universal system?  Not just hospitals and clinics, but medical equipment, pharma, etc will be needed to accomodate a huge increase in demand.</p>
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		<title>By: BooRadley</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14564</link>
		<dc:creator>BooRadley</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:34:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14564</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I think localizing the food supply in urban, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.verticalfarm.com/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;vertical farms&lt;/a&gt; is an important idea. It hasn’t been prototyped on a big scale, afaik, but I think it has many advantages over our current emphasis:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt; 	 Year-round crop production; 1 indoor acre is equivalent to 4-6 outdoor acres or more, depending upon the crop (e.g., strawberries: 1 indoor acre = 30 outdoor acres)&lt;br /&gt;
	No weather-related crop failures due to droughts, floods, pests&lt;br /&gt;
	All VF food is grown organically: no herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers&lt;br /&gt;
	VF virtually eliminates agricultural runoff by recycling black water&lt;br /&gt;
	VF returns farmland to nature, restoring ecosystem functions and services&lt;br /&gt;
	VF greatly reduces the incidence of many infectious diseases that are acquired at the agricultural interface&lt;br /&gt;
	VF converts black and gray water into potable water by collecting the water of&lt;br /&gt;
evapotranspiration&lt;br /&gt;
	VF adds energy back to the grid via methane generation from composting non-edible&lt;br /&gt;
parts of plants and animals&lt;br /&gt;
	VF dramatically reduces fossil fuel use (no tractors, plows, shipping.)&lt;br /&gt;
	VF converts abandoned urban properties into food production centers&lt;br /&gt;
	VF creates sustainable environments for urban centers&lt;br /&gt;
	VF creates new employment opportunities&lt;br /&gt;
	We cannot go to the moon, Mars, or beyond without first learning to farm indoors on&lt;br /&gt;
earth&lt;br /&gt;
	VF may prove to be useful for integrating into refugee camps&lt;br /&gt;
	VF offers the promise of measurable economic improvement for tropical and subtropical&lt;br /&gt;
LDCs. If this should prove to be the case, then VF may be a catalyst in helping to reduce or even reverse the population growth of LDCs as they adopt urban agriculture as a strategy for sustainable food production.&lt;br /&gt;
	VF could reduce the incidence of armed conflict over natural resources, such as water&lt;br /&gt;
and land for agriculture&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think localizing the food supply in urban, <a href="http://www.verticalfarm.com/" rel="nofollow">vertical farms</a> is an important idea. It hasn’t been prototyped on a big scale, afaik, but I think it has many advantages over our current emphasis:</p>
<blockquote><p> 	 Year-round crop production; 1 indoor acre is equivalent to 4-6 outdoor acres or more, depending upon the crop (e.g., strawberries: 1 indoor acre = 30 outdoor acres)<br />
	No weather-related crop failures due to droughts, floods, pests<br />
	All VF food is grown organically: no herbicides, pesticides, or fertilizers<br />
	VF virtually eliminates agricultural runoff by recycling black water<br />
	VF returns farmland to nature, restoring ecosystem functions and services<br />
	VF greatly reduces the incidence of many infectious diseases that are acquired at the agricultural interface<br />
	VF converts black and gray water into potable water by collecting the water of<br />
evapotranspiration<br />
	VF adds energy back to the grid via methane generation from composting non-edible<br />
parts of plants and animals<br />
	VF dramatically reduces fossil fuel use (no tractors, plows, shipping.)<br />
	VF converts abandoned urban properties into food production centers<br />
	VF creates sustainable environments for urban centers<br />
	VF creates new employment opportunities<br />
	We cannot go to the moon, Mars, or beyond without first learning to farm indoors on<br />
earth<br />
	VF may prove to be useful for integrating into refugee camps<br />
	VF offers the promise of measurable economic improvement for tropical and subtropical<br />
LDCs. If this should prove to be the case, then VF may be a catalyst in helping to reduce or even reverse the population growth of LDCs as they adopt urban agriculture as a strategy for sustainable food production.<br />
	VF could reduce the incidence of armed conflict over natural resources, such as water<br />
and land for agriculture</p>
</blockquote>
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		<title>By: DBaker</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14563</link>
		<dc:creator>DBaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 21:29:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14563</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;But, to get back to my original point, are large public works projects possible that would allow said graywater systems?  I would think the answer is “yes,” but I just don’t know enough about this subject.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;In Jane’s thread on the mothership about the Big 3 and BK, there was a discussion about the Dutch and their system of dikes, where they actually built one that was environmentally friendly to allow one of the estuaries to remain salt water in order not to destroy the unique habitat that exists at the end of that estuary near Roosendaal.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, to get back to my original point, are large public works projects possible that would allow said graywater systems?  I would think the answer is “yes,” but I just don’t know enough about this subject.</p>
<p>In Jane’s thread on the mothership about the Big 3 and BK, there was a discussion about the Dutch and their system of dikes, where they actually built one that was environmentally friendly to allow one of the estuaries to remain salt water in order not to destroy the unique habitat that exists at the end of that estuary near Roosendaal.</p>
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		<title>By: Margot</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14560</link>
		<dc:creator>Margot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 20:11:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14560</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;We need towns and cities all over to change their codes to allow graywater systems for garden watering. Actually we in my city need a code inspection moratorium. No one can afford to paint a house. It’s simply not going to happen.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>We need towns and cities all over to change their codes to allow graywater systems for garden watering. Actually we in my city need a code inspection moratorium. No one can afford to paint a house. It’s simply not going to happen.</p>
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		<title>By: Jkat</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14558</link>
		<dc:creator>Jkat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 19:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14558</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;we need more than highway construction [roads and bridges] .. we especially need to be looking a constructing gray water recapture systems .. and water treatment/filtration systems .. sewers .. ect .. there’s a lot which could be done to prepare for future shortages in clean safe drinking water .. and sewage systems which don’t overflow and pollute rivers and streams ..&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>we need more than highway construction [roads and bridges] .. we especially need to be looking a constructing gray water recapture systems .. and water treatment/filtration systems .. sewers .. ect .. there’s a lot which could be done to prepare for future shortages in clean safe drinking water .. and sewage systems which don’t overflow and pollute rivers and streams ..</p>
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		<title>By: DBaker</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14537</link>
		<dc:creator>DBaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14537</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;&lt;em&gt;unnecessarily prolonged the recession&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I meant: unnecessarily prolonged the &lt;strong&gt;depression&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>unnecessarily prolonged the recession</em></p>
<p>I meant: unnecessarily prolonged the <strong>depression</strong></p>
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		<title>By: DBaker</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/1936/comment-page-1#comment-14536</link>
		<dc:creator>DBaker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 17:35:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/1936#comment-14536</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Actually, this:&lt;br /&gt;&lt;/p&gt;&lt;blockquote&gt;The deflation fight in the 1930s prolonged the agony rather than curtailed it. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;is false Conventional Wisdom.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/17/paul-krugman-schools-geor_n_144298.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Paul Krugman smacked down George Will&lt;/a&gt; this past Sunday on &lt;em&gt;This Week&lt;/em&gt; and pointed out the return to “balanced budgets” in 1937 actually unnecessarily prolonged the recession.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;What measures do you refer to here?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;“The measures that have been taken already in the present circumstances are by all measures historically doomed to failure and likely will end with a period of hyperinflation.”&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Frankly, we have NOT seen large government works projects tried since World War II.  If I am incorrect here, please provide links to articles or other type of sourcing making your point here.  The only measures the central government has provided so far have been relatively small stimulus checks, which I personally used to pay off my credit cards and the injection of large sums of capital into the financial system - something that I feel is ill-advised and poorly thought out.  These are not the measures that I discuss in my post.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;As stated in the article above, in cases of deflation, one of the proven methods is to inject more money into the economy.  We are in a different situation than say, the Weimar Republic (we have a tad quicker access to information now than then) or Argentina in early 90s. (dollars, as the world-wide safe currency of choice are actually more in a demand as we have seen a rise in the dollar compared to other currencies in the last 6 months)&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;With the access to quick information that we now have, competent management (and I will grant you that that is a large question mark still) will pick up signs of inflation fast enough so that we are able to raise interest rates again and put them back to historical levels.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Economists out there - am I missing something?&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, this:</p>
<blockquote><p>The deflation fight in the 1930s prolonged the agony rather than curtailed it. </p></blockquote>
<p>is false Conventional Wisdom.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/11/17/paul-krugman-schools-geor_n_144298.html" rel="nofollow">Paul Krugman smacked down George Will</a> this past Sunday on <em>This Week</em> and pointed out the return to “balanced budgets” in 1937 actually unnecessarily prolonged the recession.</p>
<p>What measures do you refer to here?</p>
<blockquote><p>“The measures that have been taken already in the present circumstances are by all measures historically doomed to failure and likely will end with a period of hyperinflation.”</p>
</blockquote>
<p>Frankly, we have NOT seen large government works projects tried since World War II.  If I am incorrect here, please provide links to articles or other type of sourcing making your point here.  The only measures the central government has provided so far have been relatively small stimulus checks, which I personally used to pay off my credit cards and the injection of large sums of capital into the financial system &#8211; something that I feel is ill-advised and poorly thought out.  These are not the measures that I discuss in my post.</p>
<p>As stated in the article above, in cases of deflation, one of the proven methods is to inject more money into the economy.  We are in a different situation than say, the Weimar Republic (we have a tad quicker access to information now than then) or Argentina in early 90s. (dollars, as the world-wide safe currency of choice are actually more in a demand as we have seen a rise in the dollar compared to other currencies in the last 6 months)</p>
<p>With the access to quick information that we now have, competent management (and I will grant you that that is a large question mark still) will pick up signs of inflation fast enough so that we are able to raise interest rates again and put them back to historical levels.</p>
<p>Economists out there &#8211; am I missing something?</p>
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