<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: One &#8211; No, Two &#8211; Deaths at WalMart</title>
	<atom:link href="http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/feed" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089</link>
	<description>Just another Firedoglake weblog</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sun, 29 Nov 2009 11:16:14 -0600</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: egregious</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15643</link>
		<dc:creator>egregious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 30 Nov 2008 18:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15643</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Nonplussed adds the following comment on my small blog mcegregious:&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;p&gt;I think all the talk about parents wanting to provide their children with the latest toys, or indulge their fantasies before the latest wide screen fantasma, is missing what has happened as retail moved to the roots via the intertoobz.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;With many thousands ppl earning significant amounts of their income on eBay, the early risers circling the malls Friday were looking for something, anything, they could buy cheap and, within hours, post for resale on eBay. It isn’t Elmo for the toddler that fueled the frenzy on Black Friday. Rather it was the chance to score a profit by reselling those loss leaders. It’s all a game and the score is kept in $$.&lt;/p&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nonplussed adds the following comment on my small blog mcegregious:</p>
<blockquote><p>I think all the talk about parents wanting to provide their children with the latest toys, or indulge their fantasies before the latest wide screen fantasma, is missing what has happened as retail moved to the roots via the intertoobz.</p>
<p>With many thousands ppl earning significant amounts of their income on eBay, the early risers circling the malls Friday were looking for something, anything, they could buy cheap and, within hours, post for resale on eBay. It isn’t Elmo for the toddler that fueled the frenzy on Black Friday. Rather it was the chance to score a profit by reselling those loss leaders. It’s all a game and the score is kept in $$.</p>
</blockquote>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Loo Hoo.</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15606</link>
		<dc:creator>Loo Hoo.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:31:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15606</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Nice work, eg, and a hearty discussion!  I’ll add that I think it’s most interesting that Walmart immediately let it be know that this was not an employee death (as was originally reported) but rather a temporary employee death.  Must be a huge distinction in the coming lawsuit.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice work, eg, and a hearty discussion!  I’ll add that I think it’s most interesting that Walmart immediately let it be know that this was not an employee death (as was originally reported) but rather a temporary employee death.  Must be a huge distinction in the coming lawsuit.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: egregious</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15600</link>
		<dc:creator>egregious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 22:34:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15600</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As does &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.vanityfair.com/online/wolcott/2008/11/back-from-my-whirlwind-inspection.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Wolcott&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As does <a href="http://www.vanityfair.com/online/wolcott/2008/11/back-from-my-whirlwind-inspection.html" rel="nofollow">Wolcott</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: deSelby</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15596</link>
		<dc:creator>deSelby</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:52:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15596</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;It’s no surprise that Maha has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/28/safety-tips/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;an interesting take&lt;/a&gt; on this.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It’s no surprise that Maha has <a href="http://www.mahablog.com/2008/11/28/safety-tips/" rel="nofollow">an interesting take</a> on this.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mracine</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15595</link>
		<dc:creator>mracine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:20:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15595</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;But, if you knew the drunken frat boys were going to be stopping by the place where you left the gas soaked rags and matches?  Turning this into proof of what a morally superior person you are, that you would never trample anyone doesn’t help matters at all.  If you had asked anyone in that crowd Thursday morning if they would ever trample someone to death for a TV, they would have said no, and been disgusted with you for asking.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Walmart knew that there were going to be large crowds and took no security precautions.  They in fact feed the mob frenzy attitude through their marketing procedures.  They release footage of shoppers rushing into the store, knocking things and people over, thus teaching their customer base the correct way to celebrate Black Friday.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Crowd behavior has been closely studied and is predictable.  Other stores handle these sales differently, taking this knowledge into account.  System security isn’t based on how well the system succeeds, but on how it fails.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>But, if you knew the drunken frat boys were going to be stopping by the place where you left the gas soaked rags and matches?  Turning this into proof of what a morally superior person you are, that you would never trample anyone doesn’t help matters at all.  If you had asked anyone in that crowd Thursday morning if they would ever trample someone to death for a TV, they would have said no, and been disgusted with you for asking.</p>
<p>Walmart knew that there were going to be large crowds and took no security precautions.  They in fact feed the mob frenzy attitude through their marketing procedures.  They release footage of shoppers rushing into the store, knocking things and people over, thus teaching their customer base the correct way to celebrate Black Friday.</p>
<p>Crowd behavior has been closely studied and is predictable.  Other stores handle these sales differently, taking this knowledge into account.  System security isn’t based on how well the system succeeds, but on how it fails.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mreddieb</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15594</link>
		<dc:creator>mreddieb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 21:04:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15594</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The shoppers were put into a state of mind that led them to think they were perfectly safe and having fun in their excited “WILD RUSH” to get that advertised special item. They had absolutely to reason to believe this was a dangerous enterprise to themselves or others. They certainly had no reason to think they would hurt or harm others. Just like people who get on a roller coaster have every expectation that the ride is in reality perfectly safe and not really dangerous at all. In this case, in the shoppers had every reasonable expectation that they were engaging in a “SAFE” and harmless stampede. It was part of the excitement of the shopping event promoted and staged by the retailers. It is the retailers who decided to ignore the real dangers and risks of creating these shopping stampedes without taking all precautions neccessary to protect the innocent participants. The most insideous part of this entire event is how the retailers and the media are letting the shoppers take the Blame for getting on the retailers “Black Friday shopping ride”.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The shoppers were put into a state of mind that led them to think they were perfectly safe and having fun in their excited “WILD RUSH” to get that advertised special item. They had absolutely to reason to believe this was a dangerous enterprise to themselves or others. They certainly had no reason to think they would hurt or harm others. Just like people who get on a roller coaster have every expectation that the ride is in reality perfectly safe and not really dangerous at all. In this case, in the shoppers had every reasonable expectation that they were engaging in a “SAFE” and harmless stampede. It was part of the excitement of the shopping event promoted and staged by the retailers. It is the retailers who decided to ignore the real dangers and risks of creating these shopping stampedes without taking all precautions neccessary to protect the innocent participants. The most insideous part of this entire event is how the retailers and the media are letting the shoppers take the Blame for getting on the retailers “Black Friday shopping ride”.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: egregious</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15593</link>
		<dc:creator>egregious</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15593</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;One more thing? You do make a good point about the individual store management. I should clarify, that my blame is for higher management that set the policies and restricted the local stores’ ability to handle the mob scene by having insufficient resources and guidance.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing? You do make a good point about the individual store management. I should clarify, that my blame is for higher management that set the policies and restricted the local stores’ ability to handle the mob scene by having insufficient resources and guidance.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: mracine</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15592</link>
		<dc:creator>mracine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:53:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15592</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;One thing - groupthink and herd instinct/mobs are two different things.  The Standford Prison Project has nothing to do with an event like this.  No one was trying to coerce anyone into trampling a man.  Remember enough of my sociology to recognize what probably happened, but not enough to be sure. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Police had been called but not cleared the crowd or restored order.  What the workers did (barricade the doors with their bodies) was a very bad decision (but since the man who was killed was a temporary maintenance worker one has to assume no one with knowledge of crowd control was on hand). The people coming to barricade the doors could probably be seen by the crowd, who thought that the doors were being opened.  Word passed through the crowd, people at the back started pushing, the doors gave way and the human wall came forward into the store.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Why did people not want to leave?  One of the things about big box stores is that they are specifically designed to feel safe, make people feel contented.  That is why the ceilings are high and brightly lit, shelves tall, but not looming overhead.  Retail spaces have a great deal of human engineering research behind them.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It is hard to convince people who feel safe that they are in danger - much of the same effect as people not evacuating for fire or hurricanes. There was a study after the Woodstock 99 festival that showed that making a large crowd situation too “safe” actually increased dangerous behavior.  When there is a sense of danger, humans usually unify and start working towards the safety of the group.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Add in sleep deprivation…&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One thing I found amazing talking to neighbors is that they no longer teach civil defense in schools.  Apparently, all we had to fear was the bomb and the rest was window dressing.  But just the knowledge that there is a right and wrong thing to do when shit starts getting bad and ugly is an important thing to know.  I get the sense that people here know that a mob of 2000 people trying to get into a sale at 5AM is no where to be if you want to be safe.  But a lot of people don’t seem to know that… and to assume that being in a Walmart means you are safe.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;One last bit - stores have to get permits from the local police departments to open early - one hopes that the police will start to be more proactive about determining if they have adequate security plans.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing &#8211; groupthink and herd instinct/mobs are two different things.  The Standford Prison Project has nothing to do with an event like this.  No one was trying to coerce anyone into trampling a man.  Remember enough of my sociology to recognize what probably happened, but not enough to be sure. </p>
<p>Police had been called but not cleared the crowd or restored order.  What the workers did (barricade the doors with their bodies) was a very bad decision (but since the man who was killed was a temporary maintenance worker one has to assume no one with knowledge of crowd control was on hand). The people coming to barricade the doors could probably be seen by the crowd, who thought that the doors were being opened.  Word passed through the crowd, people at the back started pushing, the doors gave way and the human wall came forward into the store.</p>
<p>Why did people not want to leave?  One of the things about big box stores is that they are specifically designed to feel safe, make people feel contented.  That is why the ceilings are high and brightly lit, shelves tall, but not looming overhead.  Retail spaces have a great deal of human engineering research behind them.</p>
<p>It is hard to convince people who feel safe that they are in danger &#8211; much of the same effect as people not evacuating for fire or hurricanes. There was a study after the Woodstock 99 festival that showed that making a large crowd situation too “safe” actually increased dangerous behavior.  When there is a sense of danger, humans usually unify and start working towards the safety of the group.  </p>
<p>Add in sleep deprivation…</p>
<p>One thing I found amazing talking to neighbors is that they no longer teach civil defense in schools.  Apparently, all we had to fear was the bomb and the rest was window dressing.  But just the knowledge that there is a right and wrong thing to do when shit starts getting bad and ugly is an important thing to know.  I get the sense that people here know that a mob of 2000 people trying to get into a sale at 5AM is no where to be if you want to be safe.  But a lot of people don’t seem to know that… and to assume that being in a Walmart means you are safe.  </p>
<p>One last bit &#8211; stores have to get permits from the local police departments to open early &#8211; one hopes that the police will start to be more proactive about determining if they have adequate security plans.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: paz3</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15590</link>
		<dc:creator>paz3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15590</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Wal*Mart + maddened and manipulated consumers = this tragedy/murder.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I see responsibility on all sides, but I placed the company first deliberately.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wal*Mart + maddened and manipulated consumers = this tragedy/murder.</p>
<p>I see responsibility on all sides, but I placed the company first deliberately.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: hctomorrow</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/2089/comment-page-1#comment-15589</link>
		<dc:creator>hctomorrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/2089#comment-15589</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I’m officially going to tune out now, so I’m sorry to cut the discussion short, but, as the timestamps might indicate, I haven’t slept in a while.  &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;It’s been real, I’ll say that.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’m officially going to tune out now, so I’m sorry to cut the discussion short, but, as the timestamps might indicate, I haven’t slept in a while.  </p>
<p>It’s been real, I’ll say that.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
