David, thank you so much for this post and for your work on the Primetime Torture Project. Our culture really is in need of a high profile hero who shuns torture and works by the rules. I did a post recently comparing Jack Bauer to David Webb (of the Bourne trilogy) to show how the proper hero should behave. Maybe you could agitate for a TV series for the Webb character as an anti-Bauer.

Digg is open, folks. Let’s get this story some attention.

Judge Scalia cites Jack Bauer as example in discussion over torture

Erdla

Thanks David – excellent diary.

what I would love to see is an episode demonstrating the information obtained through torture actually costs lives, which it does in many more avenues then it might save on the rare occasion the blind squirrel finds a nut in the hole it digs

I would love to see the scenario where we lose valuable time and assets pursuing information obtained through torture, we then get a chance to visit the information obtained through the other techniques and bing, we just miss the opportunity to prevent an event, the event that would have been prevented had we gone with the far more reliable information instead of wasting those assets on that from torture

another scene would be demonstrating the new enemies amassed because of those policies

for instance you can bet if a man’s child, father, relative, friend were the subject of a torture program by an occupying county, you turned that man into a terrorist, you turned every friend of the subject tortured into a terrorist, you probably didn’t prevent even one incidence because you tortured buy you CERTAINLY created legions of incidence by that one person tortured

then I would love to show the scene as in the past, soldiers surrendered rather then fight because they knew we treated our captives with dignity, they fight for their root just as we fight for our root, however when they understand we have policies of torture they never ever surrender, they never ever cede

and of course the volunteered information we never obtain because who in their right mind would offer it even if they believed the information should be addressed, who on the planet would risk being tortured?

nobody that’s who

and I would love the episode or series to demonstrate our policies turned sympathizers into obstructionists, moderates into extremists, extremists into terrorists and terrorists into heroes

I would love to see the scene demonstrate the friends and family deciding to go to an al-qaeda meeting rather then work when they find out a their pal had been captured and tortured

and I would love that episode to demonstrate that these results are allready known, that the only real purpose of having policies of torture are because you want to be feared, becaues you want unrest, because you do NOT want to “win the hearts and minds” of those who live in the land you ocupy

Mr Justice Scalia has tendencies to be an idiot.

But I think you already know that.

I’ve never watched the show and have no plans to watch it ever. I find nothing entertaining about this type of show but then again…I don’t watch ANY reality show and they seem to be highly popular for some obscure reason.

No he is a highly inteligent man. Don’t fall into the trap of believing that these people are stupid – it weakens you.

Myself, either. Never seen it. But I do understand that the reality boom is b/c it is a cheaper genre. Less to script, etc. Makes sense.

On the topic, what I really want to know is what will decent folks be doing to be sure the record of torture, from the high levels, is exposed; the truth must out. Fits with the transparency theme as well as repairing America in the world. How do we keep this issue alive when there is so much on the agenda?

There was another program, an episode on Criminal Minds, I think, that showed the interrogator getting to know the prisoner, trying to see the world from his POV, and getting the desired information as a consequence. It was a kind of ticking bomb situation iirc. Think the episode got an award. So it can be done.

Remember that one of the primary reasons for torture is to extract the false information and false confessions that justify what you want to do. Cheney has recently pretty much admitted that.

Mr Justice Scalia has tendencies to be an idiot.

more likely his tendancies are to be a nazi

I fall into that trap, I sincerely arue against the man’s “genious”

he is a “genious” like cheney is, both have a method for convincing us they have some kind of clue, neither has a clue all they have is their agenda

Remember that one of the primary reasons for torture is to extract the false information and false confessions that justify what you want to do. Cheney has recently pretty much admitted that.

this is more a residual “benefit” of these fascists, the real intention for these policies is to create the atmosphere of fear, the false confession are worthless and they know they are worthless but the fear, now that’s something they can work with

I stopped watching 24 a few years ago because of its fetishizing of torture both that done by Jack Bauer and that which others do to him. I found it very creepy.

As for nuance, if 24 had nuance it would have been cancelled even before I stopped watching it.

Quite right. Scalia’s intellect, combined with his status as a Supreme Court justice and his rather calloused (to put it nicely) weltanschauung make him the most formidable of opponents.

No he is a highly inteligent man. Don’t fall into the trap of believing that these people are stupid – it weakens you.

Never read one of his opinions have you? They tend toward the sloppy and bombastic.

Nowhere have I said that either man is a genious. I have said that they are inteligent. It’s a serious mistake to underestimate your enemy, it makes you complacent.

things are much more complex than maybe we thought, and that some of our actions have had consequences in the world.”

No shit, Sherlock.
Can you say ‘mirror neurons‘?

Thanks Dave. Not a trivial task you are undertaking.

Yes I have raid some of his opinions. I’m a lawyer I don’t find him impressive as a judge. What has that got to do with anything?

I would love to see the scene demonstrate the friends and family deciding to go to an al-qaeda meeting rather then work when they find out a their pal had been captured and tortured

I’d like to see this scene too

Fascism is closely aligned with corporatism and the needs of empire to exploit people for the labor and the raw materials that they live atop. Fascism is the militarist face of corporatism and they go hand in glove.

Military minds see conflict wherever the look and military solutions to them. Power intimidates and so the MIC, the “other” corporations and the national security state are like a phalanx of forces dominating the people who basically want to pursue their lives in peace and quiet (aside from their stroked up tribal instincts).

Torture is not used to gain information though it is used in interrogations.

Torture is used to broadcast that we intend to destroy the enemy at any cost with any means. it is used to intimidate the enemy and to terrorize populations.

Of course torturers will / might claim they are getting information because “intimidation” and terrorism would be deemed unacceptable “strategies” by enlightened governments, such as our own.

The Cheneys and Addingtons and Yoos know this but won’t cop to it. The want to use every means to intimidate populations and torture is one of them. It’s absolutely NOT about getting information.

OT
According to David Sanger, W resisted providing Israel with bunker busters to hit Natanz.

They are ingenious but not geniuses.

The more nuanced Jack Bauer reminds me of this episode from Hitchhiker’s Guide:

A voice on a loud hailer said, “OK Beeblebrox, hold it right there. We’ve got you covered.”
“Cops!” hissed Zaphod, and span around in a crouch. “You want to try a guess at all, Ford?”
“OK, this way,” said Ford, and the four of them ran down a gangway between two computer banks.
At the end of the gangway appeared a heavily armoured and space-suited figure waving a vicious Kill-O-Zap gun.
“We don’t want to shoot you, Beeblebrox!” shouted the figure.
“Suits me fine!” shouted Zaphod back and dived down a wide gap between two data process units.
The others swerved in behind him.
“There are two of them,” said Trillian. “We’re cornered.”
They squeezed themselves down in an angle between a large computer data bank and the wall.
They held their breath and waited.
Suddenly the air exploded with energy bolts as both the cops opened fire on them simultaneously.
“Hey, they’re shooting at us,” said Arthur, crouching in a tight ball, “I thought they said they didn’t want to do that.”
“Yeah, I thought they said that,” agreed Ford.
Zaphod stuck a head up for a dangerous moment.
“Hey,” he said, “I thought you said you didn’t want to shoot us!” and ducked again.
They waited.
After a moment a voice replied, “It isn’t easy being a cop!”
“What did he say?” whispered Ford in astonishment.
“He said it isn’t easy being a cop.”
“Well surely that’s his problem isn’t it?”
“I’d have thought so.”
Ford shouted out, “Hey listen! I think we’ve got enough problems on our own having you shooting at us, so if you could avoid laying your problems on us as well, I think we’d all find it easier to cope!”
Another pause, and then the loud hailer again.
“Now see here, guy,” said the voice on the loud hailer, “you’re not dealing with any dumb two-bit trigger-pumping morons with low hairlines, little piggy eyes and no conversation, we’re a couple of intelligent caring guys that you’d probably quite like if you met us socially! I don’t go around gratuitously shooting people and then bragging about it afterwards in seedy space-rangers bars, like some cops I could mention! I go around shooting people gratuitously and then I agonize about it afterwards for hours to my girlfriend!”
“And I write novels!” chimed in the other cop. “Though I haven’t had any of them published yet, so I better warn you, I’m in a meeeean mood!”
Ford’s eyes popped halfway out of their sockets. “Who are these guys?” he said.
“Dunno,” said Zaphod, “I think I preferred it when they were shooting.”

http://flag.blackened.net/dinsdale/dna/book1.html

So this is why its’ so important to get those digital transformer coupons out to the public! continue the propaganda…

Mr. Danzig, thank you for your work, I admire it very much. Also, thank you for the instant discussion; I think it is a useful one.

I wonder, however, if too much emphasis on the artifice of 24 and its protagonist is not a bit of a cop out. I see 24 as pretty compelling entertainment, but that is about it. It is a TeeVee show. For the sake of discussion only, because I do not ultimately know, I suggest that the human leaders and subordinates, from the White House, Langley and the Pentagon on down the line, are the element that caused, and are responsible for, the torturous ways we have adopted and ratified. Assigning too much credit and/or blame to a mere TeeVee Show lessens and cheapens the heinous decisions, acts and motives done by and for human beings.

Jack Bauer didn’t torture anybody, he is a TV character. We did the torture. Humans. US citizens, soldiers and elected officials

I do two things….

Do.Not.Watch
Send an email to the show every week explaining that as long as the plot contains torture will not watch….. we speak to everyone I know asking them not to watch and send emails to my address book to please DO.Not.Watch……

It’s all about ratings and advertisers…. maybe we can get a list of the national advertisers and let them know why we Do.Not.Watch……

Agree completely here. Scalia is intelligent enough, but no genius. And I have never found his legal reasoning and writing anywhere near as impressive as many make it out to be. Better than Clarence Thomas I guess, but no great shakes in the pantheon of Justices over the years since the founding.

I am not a sociologist nor have I ever watched 24, and am a popular culture moron more generally. However, I am always impressed when a good author includes the way that situations are reflected in popular culture and how it, in turn, influences events. Nixonland’s Perlstein is a good example.

So 24 is both a product of the U.S. culture after 9/11, the widespread desire for revenge carried out against whom it does not matter, but in turn, influenced the behavior of those with the same revenge motive but hadn’t yet figured out how to act on it themselves.

Understand your point but I feel that Americans have lost the ability to tell the difference between TV and reality. Those things seem to be interchangeable in minds – when escape is needed – “oh, that’s just a tv show” and “but it really is like that.” For instance, “bad” immigrants and “good” cops.

“24″ is propaganda plain and simple. It is produced by Joel Surnow who is one of Limbaugh’s buddys. He was with Limbaugh on the famous Dominican Republic trip when Rus was caught with a big handful of Viagra. I digress, 24 is custom made for the Bush/Rove bullshit machine. I mean it’s not much of a stretch to equate Jack Bauer’s name with George Bush. Both single consonant with a J-B rhyme.

Kiefer Sutherland is a fine actor, but Jack Bauer is a symbol of American Fascism. I only have watched ‘24′ for 5 minutes, but that was enough to become disgusted.

For some reason, the neo-cons at AEI had a panel discussion about this show. Rush Limbaugh used this opportunity to kiss one of the show’s actresses. That probably was the last time he got to kiss a woman for free. Forgive me, but here is a picture.

Yes, as we suggested with Rush, Hannity, et al

MIchael Chertoff and his murderous crew at DHS, however, did attend a big party once to honor the creators, writers and actors of the series. Chicken, egg, justification, excuse? Who’s to know in our celebrity-driven culture?

What do Homeland Security Secretary Michael Chertoff, talk-radio superstar Rush Limbaugh, and the creators and cast of the hit series “24″ have in common? They were all part of a presentation last week by the Heritage Foundation.

The program was introduced by Sec. Chertoff and a question put to him was, “how closely does “24″ correspond to real life at DHS?” “Well, nothing is ever resolved in 24 hours” was his laughing short answer. He was more serious when he said that one of the qualities of the program he admired was that it realistically showed that choices faced by the people at the fictional Los Angeles Counter-Terrorism Unit, like those at DHS, were not simple ones between right and wrong, but tough choices between bad and worse options.

Rush Limbaugh introduced and moderated the panel, composed of James Carafano specializing in DHS at the Heritage Foundation and David Heyman from CSIS’s Homeland Security Program, two academics who bracketed Hollywood’s Joel Surnow, Robert Cochran and Howard Gordon, all executive producers and writers of “24″ and three cast-members among them. In a prelude to the discussion about the contrast between TV and reality, Mr. Limbaugh’s personal hearing-enhancement technology wasn’t working well enough to allow him to hear most of what the panel was saying.

Agreed. But here’s the thing he and his backers were intelligent and organised enough to get his miserable carcasse up onto that bench where he can and will do a lot more damage for a relatively long time.

I also agree with you about that show. But I do lay weight on it. Its existence and popularity indicate the level of cultural degradation that has taken place. It was that (deliberate) degradation of American society and its institutions that made the Bush era excesses possible. It will be hard to climb out of that particular pit.

New post

Kiefer Sutherland’s grandfather was the greatest and most beloved Canadian of all time,Tommy Doulgas, the proud socialist premier of Saskatchewan and the leader of the Cooperative Commonwealth Federation. He was responsible for Canadian medicare.

You wonder how Kiefer survives the home visits?

“intelligence” is a funny word, it means different things to some as to others

if we are comparing to bush and Cheney, yes I would grant Scaliia is “intelligent” by those standards, if we are comparing to educated men of moderate even moderate facilities I would sincerely argue against the man’s “intelligence”

No he [scallia] is a highly inteligent man. Don’t fall into the trap of believing that these people are stupid – it weakens you.

“highly intelligent” is as good as “almost a genious” and he is neither as far as I can see

as for his “appearance” of intelligence, that I would agree with, just as cheney “appears” to have intelligence but rather is wrong most of the time, krystol “apppears” highly intelligent and again is wrong just about every time

as far as scalia. it’s simple to take a bunch of non related arguments out of context and use them for your own predetermined opinion, this is not the mind of a “genious” it’s the mind of a moron…roberts is far more intelligent then scallia, roberts comes up with coherant justification for his idiology, scalia not at all, to wit; in his gore ruling, “this decisions is not to set a precedence” which means with no doubt he had no justifiaction for his ruling, and I am hardly alone in my feelings about scallia

is Scalia using whatever academic and legal materials are on hand to support his conclusions even if the materials and the arguments (or his position) don’t match? Interesting, if albeit a little scary. Is Scalia a liar? In a time where facts are not just stupid things (Ronald Reagan) but they have become irrelevant (Bush, jr), the fact that a member of the Supreme Court would take a writer’s words out of context to justify the opposite opinion means either Scalia is stupid (see Reagan again) or he deliberately misused a writer’s ideas to support a political position that he had taken regardless of the facts or writing on it.

I have to add to this writers choice “is he stupid or deliberate”

he is both, he is stupid to believe we fall for it as IF he has some kind of higher source of information AND he’s deliberate, thinkin WE are the idiots and will fall for his moronic justificatio

on topic, think progress has this up top

Conyers introduces bill creating commission to investigate Bush’s torture and wiretapping policies.»
TPM notes that House Judiciary Chairman John Conyers (D-MI) has introduced legislation setting up a National Commission on Presidential War Powers and Civil Liberties. The panel’s goal is to “establish a Blue Ribbon Commission comprised of experts outside government service to investigate the broad range of policies of the Bush administration that were undertaken by the Bush administration under claims of unreviewable war powers.” While he is unlikely to prosecute Bush officials for war crimes, President-elect Obama has hinted at support for such a commission.

will it go anywhere?

at least it begins, if it gets enough play who knows where it leads

we have to give it play and do whatever it takes to get corporate media to cover it

The program is laughable at best. How this Bauer character goes from beaten and sensory deprived for two years to unbeatable super soldier in a couple of hours defies logic of any kind. Pair that with computer technology that makes no sense at all and you have 24.

A typical episode goes something like this.

JB: Chloe, I need you to move every satellite in orbit to my exact location.

Chloe: Hang on Jack, it’ll take a minute.

JB: WE’RE RUNNING OUT OF TIME!

Dude. It’s a TV show. They are not real.

Bingo! It’s not a realistic show, in fact, it is, essentially, right wing propaganda where Bauer simply saves the day by using torture (and enjoying himself), the torture victim reveals the exact information Jack needs, and everything’s absolutely perfect by the end of the series.

….and everything’s absolutely perfect by the end of the series.

Clearly you don’t even watch the show. As a general rule, it is preferable when people are actually familiar with the subject matter on which they are commenting.

Stupid is as stupid does. Scalia is an ethical moron and a fascistic monomaniac. He may have some native intelligence, but his actions and words betray a profound lack of insight or values, or any ability to take the point of view of the other. Those are the hallmarks of true education. His hackwork does not equate to genius or refined intelligence in any sense.