I’m unclear; are you upset at Rep. Kucinich for something?

But seriously, this is politics. It is about trying to move forward. For all the Rep. Kucinich is a dyed-in-the-wool liberal, he is also a politician. When push comes to shove (as it is with this bill) he is going to work for progress. He views progress here as not having the Democrats lose control of the House and Senate in the fall, since that will assure there will be no progressive legislation on any subject. To keep that hope of progress he is not going to let this bill fail because of him.

I have no investment in the success of anything but progressive ideas. Leave the democrats already!

This bill is not progress; it’s regressive. It hardens the insurance industry’s grip on our healthcare, it will make it almost impossible for any real change to come about. Period.

God only knows what the mandate will do to the working poor over the next 4 or 5 years. It will also set a precident. How many other industry lobbyists are looking at how they can get congress to MANDATE us to buy into their industry as well?

and Kucinich knows that. Hell, he said it himself 5 days ago on national television.

he got the white house off his ass, that’s all he got.

fucking traitor.

well, look at it this way. Now MoveOn will love him. HuffPo will love him. ThinkProgress will love him. DailyKos will love him. Instead of working against him, they will campaign for him… again.

all that PLUS he got the White House off his back.

You folks are willing to sell Rep Kucinich down the pike for yes a huge compromise. Do you really think for one minute that Senator Brown, Congressman Kucinich, Senator Harkin and the rest are not going to fight like hell for the public option after this legislation is passed?

Look at Kucinich’s record, his history. He kept the public option on the air waves for the last week as best as he could. After you get over your rage. Get back on the public option or single payer bus and keep pushing. Do not let them forget that we are here. Keep pushing. They will

Leen, you have cornered the market on reason this morning! Great point, and exactly right!

“Senator Harkin and the rest are not going to fight like hell for the public option after this legislation is passed?”

are you kidding?

That’s like saying General Custer was just biding his time at Little Big Horn waiting for his next big move.

This was the fight. There is no tomorrow and Kucinch knew it, that’s why he held out as long as he did.

Your comforatable little fantasy is not “reasonable”… it’s delusion. And we know it here.

Perhaps you can sell that crap to some of the wishful thinkers over at TP or DailyObama, but here, we know better.

Back up there willy. This is a community, Leen is a long time member. The first fact means that not everyone is going to agree with you. The second means that you should not cast aspersions on her.

She is welcome to her own opinion (and she and I don’t always agree either) just like you are. Claiming you are the arbiter of what this community is and isn’t is a huge overreach on your part. You might want to reconsider.

You are certainly willing to sell Kucinich down the pike quickly. When will you be running for office?

Kucinich’s voting record tells it all. He will continue to push hard for the public option (which we all know is the compromise) Kucinich supports single payer.

Keep pushing. It is not over by any means

“The second means that you should not cast aspersions on her.”

I’m just disagreeing with her. Is that not allowed at Firedoglake these days? or is it just easier to go after me on that front than to address what I actually said?

It’s fantastical thinking to try and spin this news to some kind of “victory in the making” delusion. Sorry. But it is. And yes, I would expect that kind of spin at MoveOn or the DailyObama, but not here.

This is not a “happy happy joy joy” moment for me, in case you can’t tell from the post.

We had a shot at defeating this horrible bill. and now we don’t. This is not a good time to be pumping up the following for “fighting the good fight” for single payer. This is the time to get angry, not complacent.

Do you understand the point I am making? We don’t need CALM we don’t need “happy place” thoughts. We NEED anger. Get it?

well, according to the bill, at least the way Dennis described it 5 days ago on national television, it’s “over” till 2017, right? Can’t even address the state versions of single payer for that long, right? And by then, just like DENNIS said the other day, the insurance industries will be so ingrained in the system that it will be almost impossible to weed them out. at least, thats what DENNIS said 5 days ago.

any of that changed since then?

This

Perhaps you can sell that crap to some of the wishful thinkers over at TP or DailyObama, but here, we know better.

sounds like a effort to stifle her opinion more than just a disagreement to me.

The problem with the over the top kind of anger you display in this post is it is more likely to drive people who are sympathetic away. Being angry is often self-defeating in politics. What you need is to be resolute. That way if you are implacable but calm, you can’t be written off as a ranting lunatic.

You and I want the same things. It is the way of getting them that we differ on.

They can fight like hell all they want but without majorities in either house they won’t get anywhere. And where, exactly, are the people fighting like hell to repeal Gramm-Bliley, the bill that repealed Glass-Steagall? Chris Dodd, that fucking sell-out to the banking industry? Why hasn’t anyone taken the exact wording of Glass-Steagall and introduced it in either house as a way of controlling the financial industry?

The president has formed a commission to reduce the budget deficit by looking at ways of reducing entitlements to middle and working class people, not by reducing bailouts to big banks and make no mistake about it, we are at most six years out from another monumental financial clusterfuck.

It is over, Leen. These people don’t fight for our interests and maybe people should start identifying themselves with some label other than progressive because the progressives, historically, acted just the way Obama is acting – promise the world and then deliver for the elites. And the craven way he went to Ohio to say that this bill would help Natoma was bullshit too. She ain’t covered right away neither is anyone else. Smoke and fucking mirrors.

Fuck every last one of them, Feingold, Whitehouse, Brown, Kucinich, Sanders, DeGette, every fucking one of them.

Do you understand the point I am making? We don’t need CALM we don’t need “happy place” thoughts. We NEED anger. Get it?

As your diary does rather specifically, let’s direct that anger at the root cause and not other community members.

Thanks.

Well, at least you got a teeshirt for donating to Dennis.

What? No teeshirt?

Never mind.

They are going to push like hell before they potentially get slammed in the fall. Our job to keep pusing for the public option. They can pass it through reconciliation. Keep pushing

I cannot see any possible benefit to this post.

I share the rage at the politicians, and I also second the sentiment that we here in the community need to not divide and angry with each other. We’re all refugees essentially from a political party that has held us hostage to only one other party available, a far right party, and walked all over us. We’re all rightfully angry and alienated, and we should join together in that anger and alienation, not attack each other.

Good points. We don’t have the votes for what we want, yet.

But passing this first, utterly flawed, bill is something of a start.
Once there is a law, it becomes much easier to reform it and pick away at the provisions favoring the interest groups one by one, dividing them, without having to oppose them en masse.

Great point Seymour! You really are friendly, aren’t you? ;~)

Well, the dog didn’t get kicked. You must be open minded about these things.

No, no I do not think a single one of them will fight for it.

I think after this abortion of a bill is passed every senator and house member will run away from health care screaming and never want to touch it again.

you are damn right about that. when you can get Dennis Kucinich to vote yes on this corporatist entitlement bailout bill, and get him to say things like…

“We HAVE TO BE COMPASSIONATE TOWARDS THOSE WHO ARE CALLED UPON TO MAKE DECISIONS FOR THE NATION”

… then guess what? Single Payer ain’t coming back for a very long time, boys and girls. That’s the reality of it. And we better start dealing with reality if we want anything to really change.

The problem with the over the top kind of anger you display in this post is it is more likely to drive people who are sympathetic away

You know, that is exactly what they said when it was leaked that Obama was working the phonelines in favor of the TARP bill prior to the election of 2008.

Don’t get mad. That just drives the “centrists” away.

You know, I hope to god that at some point we can feel free to express ourselves openly especially when something like this happens that we feel deeply about, without people attempting to silence our expressions all because of some partisan manuvering.

This is about betrayal, not politics. This is about the REAL damage this bill will do to millions upon millions of Americans, and not some straw poll popularity vote.

It was disgusting when the previous administration rendered every issue down to that basest of levels.

It’s just as disgusting now.

Kucinich said it himself, this bill is a major step toward the PRIVITIZATION of our entire healthcare system. The cost ssavings in Medicare and Medicaid are just euphamisms for the beginning of the privitization process.

That’s what Kucinich is voting for. He knows it. He said it himself just 5 days ago.

Scott, if your article was a comment, I would report it as abusive. You’re angry at the wrong person. Have you ever expressed this anger at people who deserve it, like Glenn Beck, Faux News, health insurance lobbyists, etc.? Those are the people I’m angry at. Kucinich is the most principled member of congress, he supported impeachment of W. Who else stood up for that?

Seriously, I agree with all your points, mandate without public option is a disaster. I support Single Payer with no compromises. I just don’t think its productive to display the same kind of baseless anger that wingnuts deliver every day. I think you owe the man an apology. When you come down from your rage fit, you’ll probably agree. Hell, you’ll probably flame me for this, but if we were in a room, face-to-face, we could have a civil discussion about it. Don’t go all barbarian on us over one issue, please!

keep watching and listening keep pushing

I agree with you. Anger is good. Anger is what’s missing from the left these days. I hope all Americans will be angry enough this summer to get out there and fight against these crooks and sell-outs. The Obama/Bush wars should be a rallying point, especially since Obama wants to gut Social Security to pay for his mass slaughter. I wonder…would Kucinich vote to gut Social Security, too? I used to think he wouldn’t, but now I’m not so sure.

Let me see if I can explain myself a little better…

Dennis NEEDS to hear anger…

Dennis NEEDS to know we are pissed and will NOT forgive and forget…

Do you know WHY that is important?

Do you?

Because Dennis hasn’t VOTED YET… Dennis could still change his mind. This is not “barbarian”…

… this is anger, and it’s justly deserved. But it’s anger that is intentionally focused to a specific end…

dennis could still vote NO.

If we start giving him a pass now, what GOOD does that do us?

I hope Jane puts this on the front page. I hope people catch on as to what it really means. Yes, Dennis was threatened. But the real power in this country was once ours. We just can’t be afraid to use it.

I hope Jane continues to pressure right up until the moment he casts his vote. it ain’t over yet.

it ain’t over yet unless we lay down and accept it.

I ain’t doing that.

Frank Zappa thought that we needed more profanity in politics. Willy, if you really want to do some serious cussing for maximum effect, you have to mix it up more. Try to work in a nice balance of “fuck” and “shit” and “cocksucker” and “motherfucker” and “bullshit”, and then after you are comfortable with that, you need to bring it home with improvised hybrids to make sure people understand the singularity of the thought/emotion that you are expressing: “shitfuck”, “crapfuck”, “fuckface”, “superbullfuck” etc.

Being nice, reasonable and informed has not really gotten us much. Let’s see what a little rage unleashed does for us. Couldn’t hurt could it? At this point I’m willing to try anything short of violence, a line I will not cross, but anger? Let’s give it a shot.

I admire your optimism.

As long as we have the two party system all the pushing in the world won’t matter. Everytime we push the rock up the hill it falls right back down the other side.

Conversely, once there is a law, there is less chance of reform. This reform went in the wrong direction, and will probably make future efforts at reform more difficult and will make these efforts have farther to go. All we’re doing with the current “reform” is instituting state corporatism officially in health care provision. This is a public policy disaster and a set back to health care reform that the US will probably never recover from.

And I want to emphasize that I feel willyloman’s anger, deeply. I share it. I don’t share the view that “change from within” is an option any longer. We’ve been hearing the “change from within” mantra from proponents of the Party for 15 or 20 years as it has moved rightwards hugely. We’ve had a generation now attempting “change from within”. This change has failed. It has produced a Party that regards liberal reformers as, yes, veal. “Change from within” is no longer an option.

You may be right, but we’re not really gonna know for a while.

I will venture to say that if nothing is passed, it definitely will be a hell of a long time before the next attempt.

The “New Dems” sold us out to the corporations under the Clintons, and as fate would have it, Obama’s CHANGE regime is littered with Clintons and Clinton retreads. The “Centrists” are simply the pro-business fascists in dem costumes. They figured out early on that the only way to make sure they couldn’t be voted out of office was to control both “viable” parties, so they bought the Clintons, and here we are. You can’t reform this system from within.

Man.. I have a problem with your choice of wording in the title.

Too bad too, because I agree with the sentiment in the title… but I won’t rec it.

We can be better than this.

All that passing this legislation will accomplish is making the health insurance and pharmaceutical cartels stronger than ever.

I wrote it while I was live blogging his press conference. It’s an emotional responce, that is true. But there is nothing wrong with having strong emotions tied up in a cause like this one. And there is certainly nothing wrong with letting Dennis know how we feel. This wasn’t a time to be politically correct or sensitive to his feelings. Far from it.

and as I have said before… he hasn’t cast that vote yet. Which means if we are going to tell him how we feel, we had better do it sooner rather than later.

The public option was supposed to be the countervailing force to the individual mandate in this particular reform proposal. If it’s not in there now, what in the hell is the point of trying to get it post facto? If there’s no public option now, we might as well push for Medicare expansion, and quit wasting time with a completely unproven and functionally dubious creation.

Why continue to fight for the pre-compromise position in a piece of legislation that’s no longer in context? That just seems asinine.

At this point I hope to god we can abandon the whole idea of the public option in its entirety.

short-term yes…. but the insurance industry won’t long stand allied with all the other interest groups after passage and can be pushed around a hell of a lot easier then at present.

Willy and Seymour –

I’m with you guys.

Kucinich caves in the end too …

Very disappointing that not one of the progressive house members … I think there were 60 of them … kept their word to vote no for any health care bill that did not have a public option in it. I’m also disappointed that it appears that Kucinich was participating in the kabuki theatre for his vote using obama’s pressure when he was with obama in public appearances this week as cover to break his word. Maybe I am being too cynical, but this is american politics and it’s hard not to notice that Kucinich started getting coy about his vote just as he was accompanying obama to obama’s faux populist rallies in Ohio.

Is it too much to expect that at least one progressive politician would keep his word and stick to his principles? No wonder they never get their way and are constantly ignored and ridiculed when they make noise about holding out on their votes unless progressive concerns are addressed.

I’ve lost a lot of respect for Kucinich … I have zero respect for the progressive caucus in congress … they have earned none … and I am absolutely disgusted with the democratic party, their leadership and much of their grassroots support like the unions and groups like moveon. It’s party above principle above all in american politics … the public be damned.

I honestly hope that the republicans win big in November partly so that the democratic party will no longer be able to credibly claim that serving corporate interests is in their party’s best interests … that the campaign cash they get as a result can’t be deployed to delude enough voters to vote for them. Primarily though, I am of the opinion that the quicker things get worse the greater chance for civil disobedience to build on a large enough scale to actually change things. Also, the quicker these oscillations of power between these two corrupt corporate parties, the greater the chance that the people will come to the conclusion that neither of these parties represent them and the sooner the hard work of building a viable third party will commence. It’s about time the people faced the fact that with only two parties, it was just a matter of time that each of them became hopelessly corrupt.

Z

Why pick on Kucinich in particular? All the other House “progressives” sold out, leaving Kucinich by himself. Screw them all. Every last one of them. None get my support, and they shouldn’t get yours. They’ve lied to us, the people who supported them, and to the people who elected them.

I really do try to be open-minded. You pretty much have to be… to frequent FDL, but… cursing in all caps seems a bit over the top, IF you are trying to be persuasive. Perhaps there is no intent at persuasion here, just a rant. But, even that might have been better in private.

Medicare expansion would be good to push for. Either the public option or medicare expansion. Has to be one or the other for those Dems to get re-elected this fall

I don’t even really agree with the sentiments, I feel kind of sorry for the guy, but Jon Walker and I are sitting here laughing out loud.

One of the best post titles. Ever.

Jane –

I could be wrong, but somehow I don’t see you getting many invites in the near future to appear on those cable TV news and political discussion shows. But don’t worry; time will prove you right. Certainly don’t think you’ll get much TV face time in November after the Dems get obliterated at the polls. Why, hell, you might actually posit the real reasons for the bloodbath.

Willy, if ever there was a reason to go bat-shit crazy over the top with raging profanity this is it. Refreshing. I have been getting pretty bored and disgusted with all the ’sweetness and light’ civility. At some point, the Jews STOPPED marching off quietly to the gas chambers.

There comes a time when you realize that the engine . . . is being used for something so foul, so perverted, it makes you sick in your heart. And it’s then that you must throw your body on the gears, and on the levers, and on the machine itself and make it stop!

that’s a pretty inane comparison.

Think it’s a little over the top? Just stay tuned.

You know I almost felt sorry for him in that second to the last question when the reporter asked him what he would say to his supporters who felt he had sold them out.

His shoulders slumped, his head went down.

He knows what he did. You can see it his face and hear it in his voice. But this vote hasn’t been cast yet. His vote hasn’t been cast yet. Now’s not the time to give him a pass, and I know you aren’t saying that Jane.

When your quarterback throws an interception with 2 minutes left to play in the game, you don’t tell ‘em “it ok, theres always next season”…

… you yell ‘em, you light a fire under ‘em. And you tell ‘em that isn’t good enough and put him back on the field to fix it.

Yeah, I kinda felt sorry for him. But we haven’t got time for that right now. Game isn’t over yet.

Yep, I came to that conclusion the last time HCR tanked in ‘94. Haven’t voted in a national election since. The country just continues to get dumber n’ dumber. So, like a mule, it will have to be smacked by a 2×4 to get the point on ANYTHING.

Progs have no numbers, no money and (obviously) no guts. Is it any wonder they are laughed at and taken for granted?

Excellent diary title. Couldn’t have said it better myself.

Kucinich didn’t even get his ERISA waiver amendment reinserted into the bill.

Whatta chump.

If you’re gonna go for self-immolation, let me know so I can tune out.

For the love of God, take it easy on the guy.

He stood up under the pressure for as long as he could. None of us can imagine how difficult it was, sitting outside the corrupt swamp of DC.

If Dennis decided that the outcome would be less bad if the legislation passes, I know enough about him to go along.

When this legislation crashes and burns, we can try again.

LAY OFF OF DENNIS!!

I can’t imagine why people would have faith in a man like Dennis Kucinich? I mean really, his followers were a bit cult-like in their adoration. Have they not seen or listened to the man? It’s clearly not just a lack of polish, but a lack of competence to be a leader.

I’d say Lynn Woolsey is the female Dennis Kucinich, but that’d be a grave insult to DK. How those two were elected to the halls of power in Washington, D.C. is beyond me. I’d take any two people chosen at random from the phone directory over those two, and they’re supposed to be the great leaders of progressivism? I mean really, do you seriously think the so-called “progressives” in Congress are among the best 435 people that this nation of 300 million can produce?

At least the corrupt politicians display a flicker of competence and charisma.

America is doomed to despotism…..

“..I think a general Government necessary for us, and there is no form of Government but what may be a blessing to the people if well administered, and believe farther that this is likely to be well administered for a course of years, and can only end in Despotism, as other forms have done before it, when the people shall become so corrupted as to need despotic Government, being incapable of any other.”
Ben Franklin

“Look, I know it’s a lousy bill and a total sell-out to the insurance companies, but I promise to come back and fix it later. TRUST ME.”

NEW RULE: Whenever someone says “Trust Me”, it’s probably wise not to.

You need to grow up and realize that some days are good and some days are not so good. I am amazed tht FDL lets you author a post like this. I am also disappointed in DK but that is how it goes in politics. Grow up and get some class.

I stand with willyloman.

Note to Dennis K.:

Next time, Dennis, when you have Obama on the same stage, call that phony asshole OUT. Get right up in his smirking face and embarrass the fucker by explaining to the audience and TV viewership exactly how Obama has sold out the American People just like the Republicans have.

a witness to a Serbian massacre in which the victims were placed in a trench and then machine gunned,reported that before the end, “some prayed, some begged and some swore”…..count me among the swearing dead! FUCK THIS GOD DAMN COUNTRY OF SHEEP!

and so, with a dramatic flourish, a curse, and a snarl, bletspleg is no more and gone to the reward suitable for a stand-up sort of a bletspleg.

Thank You, I’m so tired of these Obamabots who just want to believe and in so doing so have put reality on hold. Haven’t these folks been paying attention? Do they think that after they get what they want for their clients AHIP and Big Pharma etc et al. they’re going to suddenly fight for anything further? NOT! They will drop this ball after the vote and NOT touch it again EVER. This is it were going to get stuck as Ins. company serfs because these creatures are essentially men and women without honor.

Thus bleated macaquerman.

Note to macaquerman: This is the reward suitable for a sit-down sort of a macaquerman.

LOL! Trust Me is right up there with the 3 great lies. 1. I won’t come in your mouth 2. I don’t have Herpes 3. The check is in the mail Actually you can just preface them all with Trust me.

Right! Great post willyloman

Dennis was the last Demo(c)rat standing (not counting the DINOS) and watching his pathetic statement was utterly sickening. I don’t understand any loyalty to Obama at this point. Obama’s corrupt behavior has been utterly despicable, I have zero hope he will redeem himself and I just want him gone.

Really it is back to the WILDERNESS time for the the Democrats (otherwise what leverage do the citizens have over these bought and sold spineless politicians?).

Is there any good groups to give money to that will attack the Democrats from the left (attack corporatism) in a totally vicious manner? Only VENGEANCE for betrayal really motivates me.

Also our political system is a totally despicable shithole, so “eat shit its politics”, does really little for me.

Leen, I agree that the people you mentioned will continue to advocate for single-payer and/or the PO in the future. But my problem is that all of these progressives have demonstrated their unwillingness to go to the wall for these positions. My view is that if you’re not willing to say no to bills that don’t have the provision you favor in them, then those who are against that provision know that they can have a “health care reform” bill without accommodating you. So, as a practical matter, your support for your favorite provision is worth nothing, because it has no practical effect on the outcome.

The progressives you mentioned, and others close to them in what they favor could have insisted on a health care reform that would be a net positive instead of a net negative. All they needed to do to say to Obama, Rahm, and the blue dogs, that if they wanted an hcr bill it had to include whatever, AND THEN MAKE IT STICK. What the progressives in the House did was the first half of that when they signed the pledge in Midsummer that raised more than $400,000 here. However, they didn’t make it stick. Instead every one of them apparently will cave and vote for what they pledged they would not do. It is because they caved that we do not have such good features as the ERISA waiver, a Medicare expansion for those over 55, and perhaps a Medicare buy-in for everyone effective immediately. The key point is that you can’t even get part of what you want if you won’t say “no.” And our progressives have shown that they won’t say “no” to this President. So, they are literally no good to us as representatives of our interests. RIP progressives in Congress and the FKDP (the Party formerly known as the Democratic Party).

And the craven way he went to Ohio to say that this bill would help Natoma was bullshit too. She ain’t covered right away neither is anyone else.

This is a very important point that the MSM is ignoring very deliberately. If Kucinich voted against this bill this would have made no difference to Natoma.

In fact, if he and other progressives had moved to defeat it, the greater likelihood is that the Democratic leadership, in a panic, would have done what was necessary to pass a much better bill.

Early in the campaign Rahm said of the progressives that “they have nowhere to go except to support Obama.” And they have shown him that he was right. Until they say “no” to this Administration on something, and give them some pain, they will never get anything they really want.

well, macaques don’t bleat much.

http://www.junglewalk.com/popup.asp?type=a&AnimalAudioID=10330

but, we do like a nice reward, if you have some nuts to spare.

Isn’t that the point though. Some of us are ready to abandon the Party that’s been screwing us. Others advise continuing to work with that Party. The Democrats have no reason for being now. The Party needs to pass into history and leave the left to a new Party willing to represent us. Have you ever seen anything like Democratic Party propaganda right now? The gap between propaganda and reality is so great because the Democrats are trying to maintain their mask of being the Party of the people while they do everything asked of them by the corporates. The Party is full of liars. None of them will the truth anymore. Democracy cannot exist under those conditions.

Lighten up Willy. You don’t know what they threatened him with. Dennis was the real deal before they broke him. We all break Willy. Even you.

I mean this in the most congratulatory and non-demeaning way possible, but Jane is smart, funny, pretty, and an instigator. I don’t think she’s going to have to worry too much about being barred from infotainment programs.

> well, macaques don’t bleat much.

True enough; but macaquermans did and do.

> if you have some nuts to spare

I believe the topic is, “Why didn’t Dennis K. have some nuts to spare”…

sonorelli, I agree that Dennis is better than most others. But willy loman is nevertheless right to express his anger, because Dennis’s cave is a betrayal, especially because he was virtually the last progressive left standing.

We needed a Churchill, and our Churchill turned into a Neville Chamberlain. It is hard for us to understand why he decided to do that. He’s a Congressman from a safe District. He’s built his whole career on representing progressive positions and fighting to the end for him.

What could the President really threaten him with? What arguments could he have used? Why were they so persuasive? What could have made Dennis cave? And if we can’t trust Dennis to say with it to the bitter end, which progressives can we trust?

Seriously…if a contractor gave you that song and dance, would YOU throw caution to the wind and hire him anyway?

Gaaads…leave it to the Obobbleheads and the politically insouciant to fall for the “we’ll fix it later” routine.

I do too. The PO has been one big waste of time, effort, energy, and has been divisive within the progressive movement. WE need to get rid of it, go back to Medicare for All and get Medicare expansion as the fix to this bill.

Agreed. We need to forget about them and start the third Party that will displace the Dems.

The PO is too cute by half, and to this day it means 80 different things. Forget about it. Medicare expansion is where it’s at!

you getting there, red. but still need a some work on pluralizing.

No, some of us choose to die instead of break.

And they earn far more respect.

Thomas Paine died a pauper, but he’s still the single greatest American to ever live.

And it took a century for him to come back into the light after they covered him in shit.

No sir, the real deal does not cave, ever.

Bzzt! The Public Option and Medicare expansion are pretty much the same sort of thing and are used interchangeably. Both have been REJECTED and will not happen. Thanks, “Backroom Corporate Deal Maker” Obama.

You think so? How will you feel when the next crash happens and you’re out of a job and health insurance because these idiots didn’t do anything to curb the gamblers running the financial system?

And you are slaughtered as a beggar and a prayer. Perfect

We’re kinda being led to think kucinich was the one and only Dem holdout in the house of representatives. That sentence won’t Google very good. Was he?

Agree.

(I think they got sumpthin’ on him. I do.)

They are not at all the same.

The PO requires an entirely new institution whose purpose is to make an insurance marketplace much more competitive. Medicare expansion, on the other hand, is the expansion of public insurance coverage to more Americans so that the market for private insurance becomes smaller.

The end of the PO process, if it works as expected, a big if, is a competitive marketplace containing both a public insurance company and private insurance companies competing for customers. The end of the Medicare expansion process is the end of the private profit-oriented health insurance market for necessary health care coverage entirely.

Since these companies and this market have done nothing but produce negative value in the area of health care for Americans in general, including excessive fatalities, bankruptcies, and foreclosures, and since these insurance companies are nothing but middlemen anyway, our objective should be to put these parasites out of business as soon as we can. This should be a higher priority for us than ending terrorism since it has cost us less than 10,000 lives, while the present “free market” insurance system has probably cost us 180,000 lives in the past 4 years alone.

the FKDP (the Party formerly known as the Democratic Party)

Doesn’t that mean FucKeDuP?

FKDP = best Acronym ever.

Best righteous funny handle ever = hopeadoped

really, rotflmao.

(Today is a day to laugh and laugh.)

Never underestimate the power of Air Force One. I’m not kidding.

One thing: in his appearance on television to make his announcement and mumble his case, he looked ashen, lips bled of color, skin like wax. I thought, “Vegan diet sure sux, just look at him.” But maybe it is weirder than that. (not kidding)

Sorry, I can’t agree. Everyone of those folks stood for office and asked to be part of the pressure cooker that is Washington, DC. I don’t feel sorry for one of them, and especially not for Dennis who elected himself to progressive leadership through his rhetoric and actions over the years.

There’s no question that he should not get a pass. The passes have to stop somewhere, or these folks won’t stop caving. Dennis not only betrayed us by caving to Obama; but what’s even worse, he betrayed himself. He forgot who he is, and who he could have been.

Right. But that’s a very old rule that too many people don’t observe.

Exactly right–the progressives don’t stand together and they don’t stand up. If only a few of them had voted no early and often, BO and the centrists would have been forced to deal with them. It would have exposed the backroom deals, the public would have gotten a better understanding of the issues , costs etc and the debate could have been about Medicare for all.
But at every turn, every betrayal they were co-opted and intimidated.
I have a lot of compassion and respect for DK, but I am so very sad, disappointed and a little angry with him and the others like Sanders, Feingold, Wiener…Doesn’t seem the unions have it either if they are going to roll over for a higher excise tax.
Thus, we really are an important historical moment of change when the existing parties must be replaced– they are dead to the people, but very dangerously alive to the corporate war machine which leads to real fascism.
Coalitions of anti-corporate factions must find a way to work together for the greater good. Carry it forward.

Now that’s something Obama couldn’t do, because that stage was the President’s turf, his sand box. On the other hand, instead of caving at his own press conference, Dennis could have called out Obama there and could also have called for other progressives to join him in killing this bill. He could even have quoted Cromwell at Obama. Now that would have driven the Press crazy and would even have gotten through the Fox News screen. In case anyone needs refreshing on what Cromwell said, see here.

Hate to tell you, but we don’t all break. You don’t see Stupak breaking, do you? You didn’t see Wayne Morse breaking did you? Did Joe Lieberman break? Or Blanche Lincoln? Or Ben Nelson? They all got what they wanted. JFK wrote a book about people who didn’t break. The people who broke this time were the gutless progressives. I don’t see anyone else who betrayed the positions they were committed to, do you?

Well Dennis is gonna be on the Ed Show tomorrow. (*oh I forgot 90% of Ed’s viewers think Kucinich did the right thing-only 10% think he sold out-we are now the magic 10%!)I will actually watch, however, the Ed show along with the Nation and Daily Kos, and Move On are no longer nothing but propaganda to me. We are on our own. Propaganda ALWAYS works. Which is what I learned by paying attention during the Bush years. And I really believe Obama is much better at catapulting the propaganda than Bush was. Cadillac plans indeed.

One of your main hopes that by being angry at Dennis he will change his mind-is not a smart idea-because that would make Dennis look like more of a fool. He won’t flip flop again.

And the reason that Ed, Kuchinch, Move On, Daily Kos, Wendell Potter, the Nation and the rest are no longer legitimate is because the bill is worse than it was before not better. So there is no reason for them to support it now when they didn’t before.

How stupid do we look? Pretty damn stupid obviously. They can rant for months that this bill is a giveaway to insurance companies, and we “must have a public option”. But then it’s..nevermind. What the fuck is that? (or in DK’s words-a foundation built on sand-I guess that truly sums up Obama’s presidency since that’s all he’s really voting for)

Not only is Daily Kos and Nove On a “veal pen” the entire Democratic party and all its media has become one. The only thing that changed was their belief that Obama’s presidency is more important than American lives or the misguided faith that it will be “fixed later.” That is pure faith. I don’t do faith after the Bush years. I paid attention to what the Democrats did then too.

Kucinich was one of the only shinning lights of the Bush years. I will not forget that. It mattered. The irony is that he now caves to someone who ultimately is continuing Bush policies-torture/rendition/no habeas corpus/endless war. What sadness.

Btw, Jane didn’t cave either.

Her position has been consistent throughout, as has Jon Walker’s. I don’t agree with that position, having always thought that we would have gotten further with a hard line Medicare for All effort.

But nevertheless, Jane told us the truth about what she thought was the best position, and she has not deviated from working for that position amidst the ever-changing rhetoric of the veal pen groups. She’s never caved to the pressure to support this Administration’s perfidy.

No, There are still a few left, like Raul Grijalva. But Dennis was the one most likely to have the guts to stand alone.

HiYa, GDC> I guess it does. the expression, I think, is due to Lambert at Corrente.

GDC, Do you really think you would have caved in Dennis’s position? Why do I not think so? I think a lot of us around here would have told Obama where to stick it. Don’t you? Why not Dennis? Why not Conyers? Why not Barbara Lee? Why not Grayson? Why not Edwards?

Right for an account of the reflexive nature of the sell-out see here.

Exactly, Jane didn’t cave. And when I wanted to learn more about the health care bills and the inside scoop I came here from other blogs. And that’s the difference. If you are going to go from saying it’s the biggest give away to insurance companies in 30 years then change your damn mind-I want a real reason. I have not found a real one from any of these sources that I have previously mentioned.

yeah, I think it’s an entirely idiotic comparison.

anyone who wants to compare a representative’s change of voting stance on a health care reform bill with the annihilation of millions of people is an idiot and a drama queen, since you ask.

Who is Thomas Paine? I can’t find any reference to him in my new Texas history books.

he wasn’t a Texan, just some English dude.

Maybe it’s just 11 dimensional chess.

Maybe Dennis thinks if he votes for it, then 2+ Blue Dogs will see it as “too liberal” and vote against.

See, it’s brilliant.

wow. I’ve found that when I write these types of letters I do it on paper, hide it for a week and then decide what I want to do with it. I have never sent one of them. No one knows what Kucinch and Obama talked about in secret. Out of all politicians, if I had to choose one it still would be him.

I’m glad you’ve identified the qualities important to you.
Now, go back to your “Dancing with the Stars” and DVR’ed Oscars …

Well, with clear-eyed, reasonable analysis like this, it’s hard to see how we won’t develop a winning strategy to transform the country anytime soon.

Where’s the Dennis Kucinich who stood up to the banks in Cleveland in the 1970’s, who risked political suicide to do the right thing? He certainly wasn’t on the airplane with Obushma, that’s for certain. I have to wonder what Hopey McChangerton threatened him with, because if the fiends were able to bully Dennis into craven submission, who can’t they bully? So, as Bill Egnor suggests will happen, Democrats will lose big time in November. No one wants a party in power that promises change but delivers only institutionalization of the status quo. Dennis has endangered his own chances for re election by caving in to Obama’s irrational drive for Democrats to commit political suicide.

Willy,

I just signed up for an account here just so I could post this reply to you.

I do not wish criticize you at all for what you have written. I share the same desire as you, I think, to not see people suffer needlessly.

I come from a radical-left political perspective myself. Some of your language here – especially the tone and the anger – reminds me of things I used to say. Several years ago I learned a meditation technique that I have been practicing, and it has been very helpful to me. It has helped me become a happier person and helped me become more effective and productive. I am not trying to proselytize: there was just something about your writing that made me want to share this with you. http://www.dhamma.org
Good-luck.

Maybe McChangerton was goin’ shame cookedcinich with the UFO stuff.. and make him look like a delusional fool.

friendlyperson,

I am glad you signed up. We could use more friendlypersons on this and pretty much every website out there in the next couple of months.

I tried meditation once. It pissed me off.

Takes too long and my knees started hurting. I kept thinking to myself “I must be doing this wrong” then I got mad because I felt insecure about the whole thing. I ended up buying a Richard Gere video just so I could throw it away (BTW. Have you seen Broklyns Finest? Good movie. just saw it. Gere is very good in it).

One of these days, I hope, I pray, that anger like this will a thing of the past. I know that we will always have disagreements and disappointments, I’m not looking for some fantasy world reality…

but until then, sometimes anger works. Sometimes it’s needed if only as a vent, a release mechanism. a good rant is therapeudic sometimes, not just for me (the writer) but also the reader as well.

Where would we be without the Bill Hicks of the world? Just how cathartic is CarrotTop?

Besides, I think ranting on blogs IS my meditation. At least my knees don’t cramp up.

Thanks for you comment. Glad to “see” you here.

I’m sorry to tell you WL, but DK was a bright shiny object thrown under the bus by the White House. Hold your tongue, dude. Stop jousting at windmills.

> you getting there, red. but still need a some work on pluralizing.

You’re getting there, macaquerman, but still need a some work on pluralizing. And capitalizing. And use of intransitive verbs. And indefinite articles. And grammar. And staying on topic.

Sorry, but that wasn’t the comparison what GDC was referring to was the willingness to go along to get along when you’re clearly in a deflationary process that you have no control over. In this type of situation you just have o dig in your heels and say no and not give the aggressor what they want, whatever the cost may be. If progressives had said no to what this administration was doing back last June when the first shitty House bill emerged from the first committee, we wouldn’t be looking at this terrible bill now and there would have been no sell-out by Dennis.