The Beltway media appear unable to understand why so many of us feel betrayed by this President. But that is because they do not seem to understand, and perhaps do not care, that he’s putting the rule of law up for grabs, both by his actions and by engaging in a debate with people who do not believe they, or he, should be subject to the law.
Except for folks like Rachel Maddow, our media are preoccupied by the "dueling speeches," the so-called "debate" between Dick Cheney and the President of the United States about the efficacy of torture/enhanced interrogation techniques and whether it was reasonable to authorize and conduct these activities after 9/11. But despite the impressive rhetoric in parts of Obama’s speech today, the President of the United States has no business engaging in that "debate."
The sworn duty of the President of the United States is to uphold the Constitution; to faithfully execute the office of the President and "to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States." In short, the Constitution is not up for grabs.
But instead of doing his job and protecting the Constitution, the President is engaging in a debate about whether the Constitution and the laws of the United States should be followed, whether adhering to the Constitution and criminal statutes during a perceived threat is a good idea or reasonable expectation, and most astonishingly, whether we should overlook serious lawbreaking and morally abhorrent conduct by our government’s highest officials.
Why is the President of the United States engaging in this debate? It may be reasonable for Obama to remind American citizens that it is his duty to uphold the Constitution, to reaffirm that upholding the law even against high government officials is essential to preserve respect for and adherence to the rule of law. But by legitimizing a debate about whether this position is reasonable, Obama has carelessly allowed Dick Cheney to disguise the commission of the most serious crimes, crimes that were not only morally reprehensible but that did incalculable harm to our security, as "policy differences."
Today, Obama described the legal legacy of the past Administration as "a mess." That sounds like what kids do in the kitchen. It would have been more accurate, and better for him and the country, to describe the Bush/Cheney legacy as a lawless, unconstitutional morass, a situation so unlawful and corrupt that it has hopelessly compromised our ability achieve justice in dozens of potential court cases. He suggested this, but on this point, subtlety is not helpful.
Barack Obama has no right to put our Constitution and the rule of law up for debate. Instead, what Obama needs to say to Americans, and all the response he needs to make to all of the Cheneyites of the last Administration, is this:
"Numerous disclosures indicate that the criminal laws of this nation may have been violated at the highest levels of our government. I will support a criminal investigation by an independent counsel to determine whether the nation’s laws and treaties of the United States were violated and by whom. If the counsel determines that indeed crimes were committed, I will expect that counsel to do his/her duty and prosecute those responsible, and I will expect our federal courts and juries to do their duty under the law. We will uphold the laws of this country, and it will be the policy of this Administration to ensure that no one is above the law."
So stop debating Cheney. These principles are beyond debate; they’re not up for grabs just because Dick Cheney fears being held criminally liable for his actions. If Cheney and/or others are indicted and tried, they can attempt whatever arguments in their defense the courts will allow. But I suspect most of the debating points Cheney is using now won’t be relevant in that situation.
Related posts:
dday, Rhetoric and Reality, at Digby’s place.
Jane Mayer, The Hard Cases
Eric L. Lewis, Cheney, the CIA and Torture: Asking the Wrong Questions.
TPM/Brian Beutler, Human Rights Groups: Obama’s Policies Mimic the Bush Admin.
Glenn Greenwald, Obama’s Civil Liberties Speech
Dan Froomkin, The Highs and Lows of Obama’s Big Speech
David Waldman, Obama Meets the Civil Liberties Advocates
Update, Friday a.m.: After rereading Obama’s speech and various reactions, and thinking about this more, I think it important to acknowledge the extraordinary eloquence of the arguments Obama put forward in defense of our Constitutional framework and the rule of law.
Put aside, for the moment, Froomkin’s (or Greenwald’s) observation that there were also elements in the speech that appeared to deviate from Obama’s own principles. It was still a stirling defense of why we need to uphold the nation’s legal foundations. And though it is deeply regrettable that, because of men like Dick Cheney, such a defense has become necessary, it was still enormously valuable for the President of the United States to make that defense, to make it strongly and convincingly and to make it in the face of Dick Cheney’s continued assault on America’s legal and ethical foundations.
We’ve gone through eight years in which those foundations have been under devastating assault from an Administration that simply did not recognize the Constitutional framework as limiting, for both moral and security reasons, the discretion and actions of the executive. That was eight years in which the administration of justice was strangled at Bush’s DoJ to serve the Administrations political agenda; eight years in which most of Congress failed to perform their responsibilities to check a lawless regime or hold anyone accountable; and eight years in which most of the media pretended either that this was not happening or seemed not to care.
That sustained, lawless nightmare has taken a huge toll on this nation’s ability to hold its highest officials accountable for even the most egregious wrong doing. We see the consequences everywhere, from detention/interrogation policies, to lying to Congress, to failing to hold the financial sector accountable for massive fraud and looting. The Cheneyesque view that created and imposed this nightmare needed to rebutted, and Obama did that.
But that’s not enough; now it needs to be rooted out.
Upholding the Constitution, preserving, protecting and defending it, require not merely abiding by its terms as President going forward, but also holding others accountable when they failed to do so. And that is an essential task to restoring the rule of law, the part of his job our President seems unwilling to perform.
David Waldman, who’s comment on the President’s meeting with civil liberties groups I added this morning, captures this point well:
I’m still concerned, for instance, that the Republican theory of executive power with respect to detainee policy — something the President referred to as "anything goes" in his speech today — is in fact the Republican theory of executive governance in general. That poses an extraordinarily broad array of difficulties, not the least of which is that it’s an open an[d] ongoing threat to the greater Obama agenda, which is itself often invoked as a reason for not dabbling in the "distraction" of "looking backward." But unless we can demarcate Cheneyism — the "anything goes" philosophy as explicitly illegal, unconstitutional and illegitimate, its continued existence (and threatened practice by future administrations) calls into question the value and durability of the whatever parts of the Obama agenda are ultimately implemented, on detainee policy or anything else.
(emphasis mine)
Tags: cheney, Constitition, Obama



104 Comments
Spotlight
Support this site!
Subscribe to the newsletter
Advertise on Firedoglake
Send
us your tips
Make us your homepage
About The Seminal
bingo. kind of our own catch 22?
I so agree, Scarecrow. The only people running scared are those running for re-election. If only they knew that standing tall right now is the best thing for them as well as the country.
Excellent Diary. Yours is more on point than mine. I say that Democrats have ceded too much ground to Republicans who were wrong. Democrats were fearful of supporting Michael Moore and F-911, which were right. Cheney says he kept us safe (by any means) and most Democrats agree.
The sworn duty of the President of the United States is to uphold the Constitution; to faithfully execute the office of the President and “to preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution of the United States.” In short, the Constitution is not up for grabs.
But instead of doing his job and protecting the Constitution, the President is engaging in a debate about whether the Constitution and the laws of the United States should be followed, whether adhering to the Constitution and criminal statutes during a perceived threat is a good idea or reasonable expectation, and most astonishingly, whether we should overlook serious lawbreaking and morally abhorrent conduct by our government’s highest officials.
Exactly! And the source of the problem is that Obama has bought into Cheney’s distorted view of the presidency. If I recall correctly, more than once during that speech, Obama made the Constitutionally incorrect claim that:
And he knows better.
Worse yet, multiple times during the speech he also made the claim that:
But he has a constitutional obligation to enforce the law, whether he finds that duty interesting or not. If he doesn’t want to do the job for which he was elected, he should resign.
Finally, he claims to have ended torture. He has not. He has merely suspended it, supposedly for the duration of his presidency. But he has kept the option open and has, by refusing to enforce the laws against torture, virtually guaranteed that they will be violated again, if not on his watch then on those of his successors.
Thanks for both evening and morning analysis. So right on, Scarecrow.
Blessings to all,
May I add my little teeny diary comments as an addendum, please??? is that blogwhoring??? coattailing??? rude???
Cheney’s weak argument about law enforcement
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5398
but stay and discuss here, will ya? :P
Never in my life have I heard our elected officials pose the question, gee, does the constitution apply in this situation?
seems to be the question of the day every day.
Great post Scarecrow, thanks.
One of the things that worries me most about Obama’s increasingly awful positions on civil liberties is that he is able to use his considerable oratorical gifts to persuade people that Bush was right all along.
Yep, betrayed is the right word for it.
Here is a visual from BagNews on the mediai’s false equivalency;
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/20…..lency.html
According to Jeremy Scahill on his blog Rebel Reports, abuse of treatment, or torture, may not be “suspended” at Guantanamo Prison, based on the behavior of a “special force” that goes into cells of prisoners who “misbehave” like have 2 styrofoam cups in their cell instead of one, and do abuse on those prisoners.
http://rebelreports.com
Re: Dick and Liz Cheney
What kind of coward authorizes torture, and then sends his daughter on a mission to pimp for him on cable TV?
“my single most important responsibility as president is to keep the American people safe. “
And he knows better.
Yes! Apart from the preventive detention part (on which Glenn G today is excellent)., that was the part that disturbed me most about that speech.
And the next most bothersome thing, post speech, is that we are NOT seeing the huge, loud protest at the very concept of preventive detention that occurred in Britain and Canada. (see Glenn today and comments).
As I commented on another thread, the more we see of Cheney, the more we realize how deeply cowardly he is, and always has been. Going back at least to the five draft deferments.
With regard to President Obama’s adherence to America’s dearest constitutional principles, I am going to follow the advice of Nixon Attorney General John Mitchell: “Watch what we do, not what we say.” It’s good advice for monitoring any politician, but especially the highest one in the land.
And for one so rhetorically gifted, Obama sure stepped in it with his preventive detention plan.
Dick Cheney has been hiding behind Liz since she became his final deferment. He’s used her since she was pre-born.
The kind who has a child so he can get another draft deferment.
the huge, loud protest at the very concept of preventive detention that occurred in Britain and Canada
did you notice the sly way Dick referred to the applause from Europe? it’s a two-fer. It ignores the applause from US citizens and disses Europeans. what a guy!
I owe you a Coke.;)
textbook case of reaction formation.
I am a coward, so I will act so mui macho.
Just came back from the bagnews page of comparison:
all I can say is Jeebus!!!!!
most of in response to Dana Milbank – “the thrilla on the hilla.”
Can we get Jon Stewart to tell more people how their beloved “journalistic” practices are hurting America?
Jeebus.
Thanks for bringing this information together! Rachel was on fire last night– brilliant analysis of Obama’s “two speeches”, reminiscent of Dickens’ “It was the best of times, it was the worst of times.”
I really feel uneasy about all this emphasis on “keeping America Safe”. When our Federal officials take their oath of office, it is not to “keep America safe” but to “protect and defend the Constitution of the United States.” I don’t mean to pooh-pooh public safety, but it should not be the primary concern.
America has always been about taking risks. When the Pilgrims fled the Netherlands for the New World, they were not talking about safety. When the pioneers pushed Westward into unknown lands, safety was not their primary concern. When Kennedy set a goal of landing a man on the moon, the first objective was not safety. In all of these things, of course, safety was a concern. But it was not the primary concern.
Of course, Democrats have learned to Fear the Safety Card, which the Republicans whip out on all occasions, like a talisman to ward off vampires. So of course Obama has to prioritize public safety against Republican attacks. But Rachel is right on. You go, grrl!
Bob in HI
It’s a punch and judy show, Obama and Cheney are running
the same play book, but kicking up some dust for cover.
I agree more with the update than with the original article. Letting Cheney go unanswered would have been a worse thing. There are far too many people in this country who think that the Cheney Way is the legitimate way to do things. They need every dose of reality that we can administer to them.
Unfortunately, Scarecrow’s conclusion is also accurate – Obama isn’t going to actually do what is necessary to uphold the Constitution. That will fall to the next President, hopefully.
excellent points. I look forward to viewing a clip of rachel’s show from last night…
IRT Cheney, Senator Whitehouse said this a.m. at the Lake that he has worked with Eric Holder and has confidence in him (when he was asked about prosecutions). The fact that he had worked with Holder and the fact that it was Whitehouse saying this goes a long way for me.
Secondly, I think Obama is trying to get away from this unitary executive thing. There was a critique of Obama by Bill Kristol (big surprise, I know) that Obama should order whatever CIA info it is he wants released to be released, (just as Bush/Cheney would have done).
There are existing processes that need to activate themselves by the very fact that law enforcement organizations exist for situations like these. If the President orders the investigation, then it looks like partisan payback, etc. Isn’t Congress moving forward?
from bernhard at MoA: Obama Unveils His Inner Cheney
new cloth does not, imo, make for a rebuttal.
Gotta say, I FUCKING HATE THIS COUNTRY.
It has betrayed everything I was taught to believe it was about and Obama is no better than the bastards that preceded him. HE is fully in ownwership of EVERY abuse by Bush/Cheney. Hell, he doesn’t even get any points for publishing torture memos because it means NOTHING. No prosecutions, no investigations. All he wants to do, in full violation of the law, is ignore it and let criminals go free.
Worse still, he is holding onto torture as a possible tool for his own use! His spokescriminals were pointedly asked about Cheney’s contention that Obama is holding “enhanced interrogation techniques” (ie, TORTURE) in storage in case he decides he “needs” them. They officially dodged the question. You DO know what that means, right? Obama IS holding onto the “torture option”.
He is a traitor to the United States, just as is Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld etc.
Steve Benen, on the absurdity of having Liz Cheney appear over a dozen times in the last week to echo Dick Cheney’s attacks.
Nepotism Reigns
because he is a weak narcisist in love with his own voice
he does need to simply smack down the statements as “either a joke or a lie, take your pick”
Also from Benen: file under “waterboarding really is torture” talk show host discovers.
One good thing to come from the economic collapse and the Obama Admin’s total cockup of dealing with it: he is going to lose in 2012. Good riddance to the guy who thinks that because he’s black he gets a free pass to violate international law, US law, spit on the Constitution…just like his predecessors. Sorry, the black card doesn’t work.
I am hopeful that the Dems lose instead of win (almost inevitable given the fact that the economy will NOT be doing well by the 2010 election) as well. The GOP is no better but i don’t give a flying fuck anymore. They betrayed the voters the instant they came to power.
They have turned against closing Gitmo, refuse to investigate and prosecute torture, they are not even considering the 2-to-1 desired singlepayer healthcare and, in fact, are working to eliminate any public option from “healthcare reform”, and they WILL hand more billions of our money to rich assholes on Wall Street when it becomes clear that the flailing of Geithner, Bernanke, AND OBAMA are not doing shit.
This whole place needs to come crashing down so a bunch of smaller, easier-to-manage little countries can be formed from the rubble. The USA is dead and buried under a pile of waterboarded bodies.
Hi Scarecrow. Funny, in the comments someone suggests having Sasha and Malia on to debate Liz.
You and the teabaggers.
Ms. Cheney is more typically in a debate with facts and a more humane view of the world, but there’s seldom anyone there to represent either.
hey,it’s not too early to get started on an Impeach Obama movement! They are doing it, why not you?
If you look at the history of the Cheney-Addington duo you see over and over again, any attempt to thwart their agenda (notwithstanding the self-described client-attorney relationship) gets shot down. The biggest blow to opponents was aided and abetted by same when the Democratic House and Senate approved the Military Commissions Act which really sealed the deal. At this point, it doesn’t matter if Cheney is on the outside looking in, this Act established the foundation for the supreme executive power he sought not with a mandate from the masses, but by a farcical aquatic ceremony.
Seems pretty clear that Obama isn’t going after anyone for torturing- at least not anytime soon. They’re his cards and that is how he is choosing to play em. Guess he thinks that if he opens that box he can forget about getting health care and other reforms done. He might be right- don’t know. I voted for the guy and will continue to support him. He hasn’t played many of his cards yet- so I’ll wait to see the whole picture.
Yes, but its meaning is. In this instance, the issue is to what extent do the rights guaranteed in the Constitution extend to foreign detainees.
If you read the case law, the answer is less than clear.
Thanks Scarecrow for continuing to stand up for what is right.
On the earlier thread today when Sen. Whitehouse was here he was asked quite a lot and answered a select few questions—time constraints I would guess. But he seems to have lots of faith in Holder. I hope he’s right. Sadly, O can’t find it in himself to repeat the mantra “If evidence of crimes is brought forth, they will be begin a criminal process. The Atty. Gen. will do his job.” That’s all he has to say instead of doing the tap dance around it all.
As for Holder, I seem to recall a phrase “trust but verify.” Whitehouse trusts him, I want to see verification. Soon would be good.
The black card? What in the world makes you think he thinks he can get away with this because he’s black? The only thing he needs to justify his actions is that the ruling class wants it that way. The only color that seems to matter to those folks is green. Or maybe gold.
I don’t hate this country, either. I sometimes wish I did, because then watching this would be amusing. Instead, it’s heartbreaking. It’s hard to see something you care about destroyed like this.
Oh please. I have nothing in common with the teabaggers.
At least my anger, disgust, and even hatred is based on legitimate cause. Obama is blowing off virtually every major (important/key) promise he made. All the “change” he is bringing is NOT change, just slight adjustments to Bush/Cheney policies. The big change is for the blatherer in chief to add purty words to his anti-American policies of endless war, indefinite detention, ignoring torture (and holding it back for future use), spending our tax dollars on bankers without congressional consent and oversight (the Fed is spending FAR more than the mere small change that Congress did allow).
This country is NOT improving. Get it through your head. Nothing is changing that is of any importance. You are getting NO help from Obama in the Whitehouse and none whatsoever from Congress.
Normally I would say “Cheer up.”
“Tomorrow is another day.”
“Fight on.”
“Work to make this country a better place.”
But you seem determined to run it down and unwilling to stay and help save it.
We will miss you.
Oh, and just FYI, everyone, remember that bill Obama signed into law about credit card abuse? Remember the Coburn rider re guns in national parks? It seems that the White House is a national park.
Who knew?
I think it’s more about what Obama sees as “his cards.” He seems to believe that changing the tone and a conciliatory approach works in bringing people around, if you persist at it long enough, but so far, there is no evidence of Republicans moving in his direction — they’re trapped by their own crazies — and no evidence that the corporate titans whose cooperation he needs on banking, energy, climate, health care reform etc, will change their natural inclinations either. After the stimulus and budget efforts produced a grand total of 3 Republican votes (including “I am not a loyal Democrat” Specter), Obama seemed to be rethinking the strategy that he can win over opponents so easily.
Paul Krugman addresses this issue in his column today, wondering whether Obama will become more assertive in taking on the industry on health care, given the duplicity of the health insurance industry in first saying they’d cooperate and then planning ads against a public health plan at the center of Obama’s view of reforms.
I think Obama just avoids conflict as much as possible because (a) he doesn’t like it and (b) he thinks it’s counterproductive. Meanwhile, crazy advocates and scarecrows keep waiting for him to “wake up” and go after the enemy, recognizing that it is more like battle than dancing, especially given the nutty people in the Republican party and entrenched interests.
You can read Obama’s speech yesterday, in which he lays out a strong rebuttal to Cheney, as Obama learning/concluding that this adjustment is necessary, but until he actually reframes what he’s proposing in ways that don’t replicate Cheney — as in “indefinite detention” — I’ll continue to be disappointed. I would much rather be debating with/for him on matters of climate change, health reform, banking reform, etc. — in otherwords, I am distracted, ironically, by Obama’s posturing. Why a man who instinctively seeks accommodation does not do more to reach out to scarecrow-types, people who would prefer to be allies and who have spent their careers as public policy warriors, is a mystery.
It’s not just Holder; we also have to wonder about the White House counsel.
Greg Craig has seemed like a tool from day 1.
Hey guys, it does no good to argue about how someone feels. We can’t argue over which emotions to feel. I disagree with Praedor’s specific sentiments but relate to his need to vent.
masaccio is upstairs at the Mothership!
Pretending to Protect Citizens from Banks
It took me a very very long time to learn a painful lesson: one cannot reason with a crazy person.
It was a midlife epiphany. Seems relevant to Obama and his rational demeanor. How many times will he put his hand on the stove and get burned?
I have no idea what his strategy is. Most presidents get a chance to do ONE very big thing- in his case, it’s health care reform. perhaps he doesn’t want to get into a major war right now about prosecuting the torturers (something only 30% of the population supports) in order to save his political capital for health care.
As far as trying to win gooper support, he knows he won’t on most key issues, but probably figures that if he is seen as open to working with them, they will look like losers playing politics when they fight him.
That’s right, your hatred of America is righteous and well founded. They are just ignorant, racist rubes.
I’m not looking for any help.
He’s very smart; I remain hopeful, but this is going to be an emotional roller coaster in deciding whether to support or oppose.
I was fighting to choose effective words to express my considerable reaction and resulting head of steam after reading PP’s gloriously mature t.p.-ing and egg-ing of the country and pretty much everything within his spew range.
May I please join with you instead? Your skills are adequate to the task. Mine, sadly, are wanting.
*slowly sets down compost bucket and straightens frilled petticoats*
Three reasons:
1] Obama is a politician;
2] You are to the left of him; and,
3] The other political party in our two party system is to the right of him.
Sometimes accepting the premise works. You never know when it’s gonna happen.
Sit right here. I got an extra chicken salad on wheat.
President Obama can’t really believe the crap he put in that speech. He acknowledged that he studied and taught constitutional law. The whole premise of ‘preventative detention’ is abhorrent to any reasonable understanding of American Justice.
Therefore he knows better. Why would he then try to unload such a pile of pig shit on us? It seems to me to be becoming clearer that it is the same reason Bush and company talked in stupid slogans. Neither he nor they actually believe that we are either a) paying attention or b) actually give a shit about the death of the American Justice system based on the Rule of Law as preserved and enumerated in the Constitution of the United States.
No I don’t believe he is playing chess, I believe that he is in the throws of having tasted power and is daily thirsting for more of it. He is serving the interests of the Corporate Class with his bail out of the banks overseen by the lobbyist and originators of the crisis. He is invoking States Secrets to keep citizens from seeking redress in the courts against the companies who have made billions on these phony ‘wars’. He is continuing the policies of rendition, and the right to torture under some circumstances, to keep the CIA loyal to him. He is continuing the spying on Americans for the same reason. He is promulgating a stupid war to feed the military contractors and make the arms dealers richer.
I watched carefully as he gave his impressive speech. I have rewatched it several times. Now what I see is Obama wrapping himself in the flag with the Constitution shredded at his feet. When Bush did the same thing we were howling for him impeachment. Now what I read is hurt confusion.
As was said above, It is not what you say that counts, It is what you do that displays who you really are.
Obama = Bush = Criminal
Investigate, impeach, try, convict and punish criminal politicians or forget about a nation ruled by law and not men. Now is the time to organize. Now is the time to object. Now is the time to demand redress from our government.
I think reason number one is probably sufficient to explain it.
More change from Obama (and how, clearly, his policies and plans are different than Bush’s – From Tom’s Dispatch):
“Going for Broke
Six Ways the Af-Pak War Is Expanding
By Tom Engelhardt
Yes, Stanley McChrystal is the general from the dark side (and proud of it). So the recent sacking of Afghan commander General David McKiernan after less than a year in the field and McChrystal’s appointment as the man to run the Afghan War seems to signal that the Obama administration is going for broke. It’s heading straight into what, in the Vietnam era, was known as “the big muddy.”
General McChrystal comes from a world where killing by any means is the norm and a blanket of secrecy provides the necessary protection. For five years he commanded the Pentagon’s super-secret Joint Special Operations Command (JSOC), which, among other things, ran what Seymour Hersh has described as an “executive assassination wing” out of Vice President Cheney’s office. (Cheney just returned the favor by giving the newly appointed general a ringing endorsement: “I think you’d be hard put to find anyone better than Stan McChrystal.”)
McChrystal gained a certain renown when President Bush outed him as the man responsible for tracking down and eliminating al-Qaeda-in-Mesopotamia leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. The secret force of “manhunters” he commanded had its own secret detention and interrogation center near Baghdad, Camp Nama, where bad things happened regularly, and the unit there, Task Force 6-26, had its own slogan: “If you don’t make them bleed, they can’t prosecute for it.” Since some of the task force’s men were, in the end, prosecuted, the bleeding evidently wasn’t avoided.”
A war criminal, General McChrystal (it is unquestionable) is now in charge of our efforts to “win hearts and minds” in Afghanistan. This is a man specifically chosen by Obama.
Change you can believe in.
because he doesn’t have to earn your support when he needs it?
Ah, but he does. Why would a general fail to feed, arm his left flank. that’s how you lose.
Obama has a subgroup of detainees that he can’t try and who it would be political suicide to release. He’s between a rock and a hard place with those people. He has no good options it seems.
great, just great
This is a silly statement. “Instead of doing his job…” indeed.
This President is more than capable of BOTH doing his job of protecting the Constitution AND engaging in a debate in which he takes the side that the Constitution and the laws must be followed.
That is because, I think, we’ve framed this as a sui generis “war on terror” instead of either police action (we have procedures for criminals) or normal “war” — every nation holds prisoners of war until hostilities end and the sides agree on the exchange of prisoners. Cheney/Bush/Addington insisted in creating a third category that is outside any legal framework, and then tortured them to make sure they remained outside any legal resolution.
And would you go with the rest of the sheep?
By the way taking quotes from differnt posts and presenting them as if they were the same is dishonest.
i don’t think that was the lesson of his fisa betrayal.
The problem is that we have no war. There IS no “war on terror”. Hell, defined in that way means indefinite detention (or “preventative detention”) is, by definition, permanent because terrorism can NEVER be defeated. There is no country called Terror or Terrorism. There is no army called Terror or Terrorism. How can anyone even reasonably entertain the idea of holding people until the end of an endless (by definition) conflict? Unless, of course, you are a dictator or happy to be under a dictator?
Also, if you are going to hold prisoners in a “war” you must either try them as criminals (spies, saboteurs, etc) with FULL legal protections, lawyers, rules of evidence, etc, or hold them as POWs with FULL Geneva protections. There is nothing else.
I think Obama is trying to bring the frustrated on board. Steam can be used to generate power.
Mebbe he’s taking too long to adjust the petcock, but try using your last pearls of emotional wisdom to remember the enormity of what the man – yes, just a human being, albeit reputedly smart and well-intentioned – what this one man inherited from dubba and deadeye.
Mebbe I have too much faith in the man.
Mebbe some here have too little.
Mebbe we all could find our personal ways to help him succeed in doing what we would like him to do.
If we work to induce total and complete failure, we are a sad bunch indeed.
it’s just an opinion.
You’re welcome to borrow my compost bucket.
I’m in recovery.
If we hold them as prisoners of war, then we can keep em for as long as we say that we’re still at war with terror?
Lesson for whom? My view is that he betrayed the rule of law/accountability principles on FISA/telecom immunity. And that left me/others suspicious of his commitment to these principles. So when he confronts Cheney with a rule of law argument, my first instinct is to be wary. Surely the man who’s trying to reach greater concensus, and reallizes he needs allies, can sort this out.
How so? Seems damn legitimate to me.
That excuse (”I inherited this mess”) doesn’t work to perpetuity and it most assuredly does NOT apply to unconstitutional policies carried forward, let alone criminal policies (like Obama’s betrayal of “transparency” by standing firm against Valary Plame, his attempts to squelch illegal domestic wiretapping lawsuits, etc, etc, etc, etc).
He ONLY gets to play that card with regards to the economy – and it does NOT excuse his giving bazillions of our dollars to bazillionaires on Wall Street and in banking. He BLEW that one big time. Wall Street is NOT good for Main Street. Exactly the opposite but his loyalties lay with his big political donors.
Obama is a one-termer. I assure you.
No. what this does is force us to reevaluate whether the “war on terror” framing made any sense in the first place.
Therefor I surmise that you would pleased to be associated with any thing else that happens to be on this post whether or not you agreed with its contents. I think not.
sorry i wasn’t clear – when i wrote “support when he needs it” i meant at election time.
I’m reading this as a rhetorical question, right? This is why the “policy” is unsustainable.
No. Your surmise is incorrect.
Praedor, I cannot hear a thing you are saying. The shouting. The AK AK attack on … everything within your sphere. Do you really think the sun revolves around you and you alone? Or do you ever go right up to the edge of the earth and peer over to see the Chinese on the other side? Doesn’t it make you dizzy to think totally upside down?
Read your own stuff, man. Does it make sense to YOU? What future do you want? Now work outward, slowly, from there. See anything? anything at all?!
I contacted NPR about their coverage of this on Morning Edition:
;->
on topic: depressing but important interview at antiwar.com with jeremy scahill:
http://antiwar.com/radio/2009/…..scahill-2/
highly recommended.
Dang! All over the moniter! Raven, I’ll get u for this somehow. *grabs cleaning rag*
Way too early to evaluate Obama’s chance of a second term imo, but so far so good. He’d beat the pants off any gooper in sight today..
All depends on the economy I suspect.
You’re wise and kind.
Thank you Scarecrow.
Hey, that was a friendly wave.
Thank you selise. You are always a fount of useful information. A terrific gift to the rest of us at the Lake. ;->
“Most presidents get a chance to do ONE very big thing- in his case, it’s health care reform.”
Then he’s already fucked. There is no reform without single payer, the medical industry knows this.
The only way the medical industry can cut costs is more denials. If there was anything out there that worked, it would already be in place.
As for spending $$$Billion on electronic medical records, that complete nonsense. IT is replete with over promises to cut costs and complete and utter failure to deliver anything but large fees for consultants, and huge payments to vendors.
My provider, Kaiser Permanante has electronic medical records. Cut in costs? Not in my premium.
doldrums
no hope
no help
no
sad
unnecessary
?
?
?
?
Going up? Giving up?
The Obama plan is designed to provide a govt. plan option alongside traditional insurance. That is the key to the struggle. Insurance companies are lined up to kill it. If Obama wilts on that piece, it’s adios.
i suspect plenty going on behind the scenes…
newtonusr @ 87 – lol!
adie @ 88 – you’re welcome. i just listened to that interview during this thread (which may account for my even more than usual frustration with obama).
Media Ignores Real Controversy Behind Torture Photos; They Show Prison Guards Raping Children
Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet.com
Thursday, May 21, 2009
The real reason behind Obama’s reversal of a decision to release the torture photos has been almost completely ignored by the corporate media – the fact that the photos show both US and Iraqi soldiers raping teenage boys in front of their mothers.
The Obama administration originally intended to release photos depicting torture and abuse of detainees in Afghanistan and Iraq by the end of May, following a court order arising out of a Freedom of Information Act lawsuit first filed by the ACLU in 2004.
However, a reversal of Obama’s decision was announced this week, after he “changed his mind after viewing some of the images and hearing warnings from his generals in Iraq and in Afghanistan that such a move would endanger US troops deployed there,” according to a Washington Post report.
In response, the ACLU charged that Obama “has essentially become complicit with the torture that was rampant during the Bush years by being complicit in its coverup.” The Obama administration has also sought to protect intelligence officials involved in torture from prosecution at every turn.
http://www.infowars.com/media-…..g-children
Swopa is upstairs at the Mothership!
C’mon In, Hannity — The Waterboarding’s Fine!
bullshit
Dear United States,
I am sorry to hear that you are so unwell. I don’t know how long it’s going to take, but there are a lot of people that need you to recover from this awful sickness and get back to being a Republic again.
Get well soon!
anwaya
Thanks for the get well card.
Please don’t take any of my comments as indicating lack of frustration on my own part. As a self-professed “compassionate heathen” I am taking a lot on faith in maintaining my own cool under current circumstances.
You help immeasurably with your wonderful touch in providing valuable links and schedules to the rest of us. It’s not that the rest of us are lazy. You know the many sad stories of folks out of work, frantically treading water in present circumstances.
We are retired, and don’t fit that description, but with an impending move, extended family, limited physical capabilities so everything takes wayyyy too long compared to years ago. WE THANK YOU for making keeping in touch possible to a remarkable degree.
Please take a bow, if only to your mirror. We’re stunned, and heartened, by the results of your work.
AND, We thank you! ;->
Thank you!
We’re working on it. Per usual, it’s a bit messy, but hopefully it’ll turn out better than the last few years, and I’d like to hope a few tourniquets have helped staunch the outflow of credibility.
signed, Adie, plain old citizen standing watch ;->
Yeah, Scarecrow, it’s weird seeing the POTUS debating the future of America with someone who should be in jail for life.
tropicgirl -
credit is due for posting such important, and heartrending links here on FDL.
hey firepups here are some links from which Infowars derived its story:
http://www.salon.com/politics/…..index.html
Seymour Hersh – respect!
http://www.guardian.co.uk/worl…../iraq.usa1
the Guardian – legit!
http://www.informationclearing…..report.pdf
official, primary source, court transcript.
notice the response you get from the folks here – nothing!
Anything whose implications will seriously challenge them, or reveal how sick the system really is, is automatically screened out. Head in the sand, they don’t want to know. ( with a few heroic exceptions, who didn’t drink the kool-aid, didn’t vote for the guy, and therefore are not crippled by their own coping mechanisms.)
anyway, this hideous, inhuman cruelty is the kind of conduct that their Dear Leader is protecting, and, lets not kid ourselves, enabling.
we are really, unfortunately, going to find out that the axiom of ”Support the Democrats, no matter what” will be pushed to its limits during this administration.
I think all you bloggers are far too confident. In Germany in the 30s Hitler won the debate over terror after the burning of the German Parliament, the Richstag fire,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire
I see a real possibility that another terror attack by either al Qaeda or an al Qaeda pretend to be, like the Anthrax terrorists, will lead to Cheney’s claim that it is all caused by giving some rights to terror suspects, will take charge of the country some day, perhaps sprinkled in with a Rush Limbaugh’s claim that illigal immigrants are somehow tied in,
http://ramblingsfromthehornetsnest.blogspot.com
http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5423
RichardKanePA
Obama’s speech should be a call to arms for every American who cares about the Constitution and Civil Liberties. Obama has revealed himself to be far more dangerous than BushCo could ever have dreamed of being. More here: http://expatbear.blogspot.com/…..truth.html