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	<title>Comments on: McClatchy: Obama Heeded Maliki on Abuse Photos; What That Says for Our Occupation</title>
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	<description>Just another Firedoglake weblog</description>
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		<title>By: prostratedragon</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47654</link>
		<dc:creator>prostratedragon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 07:51:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47654</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The Iraqis already know, and I’ll bet have already processed, these atrocities. The only burning in Baghdad would likely be led by the usual provocateurs, some of whom could well be “ours.”&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;But what if instead of just throwing the images out there, the release were part of an announcement of an official, public inquiry of some kind, coupled with a draft departure schedule? There just might be enough people in Iraq who are astute enough to point out that at least we’re doing something about it now and getting ready to go, and encourage others to get along with Iraqi business. Whether anyone writes headlines about it or not, it has seemed for a couple of years now as if there’s a powerful tendency in the direction of getting on with it in Iraqi society; maybe some of those bsd psy-ops folk we’re supposed to have can help set up a campaign that would make the whole thing seem credible long enough for it actually to get done.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;At this point, anything short of an amnesty-granting body would be fine with me, so long as the issue can finally stop taking up precious psychic space. I hope Pres. Obama realizes that the matter of torture is going to be in his way until it is confronted, just because it’s the nature of the thing.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Iraqis already know, and I’ll bet have already processed, these atrocities. The only burning in Baghdad would likely be led by the usual provocateurs, some of whom could well be “ours.”</p>
<p>But what if instead of just throwing the images out there, the release were part of an announcement of an official, public inquiry of some kind, coupled with a draft departure schedule? There just might be enough people in Iraq who are astute enough to point out that at least we’re doing something about it now and getting ready to go, and encourage others to get along with Iraqi business. Whether anyone writes headlines about it or not, it has seemed for a couple of years now as if there’s a powerful tendency in the direction of getting on with it in Iraqi society; maybe some of those bsd psy-ops folk we’re supposed to have can help set up a campaign that would make the whole thing seem credible long enough for it actually to get done.</p>
<p>At this point, anything short of an amnesty-granting body would be fine with me, so long as the issue can finally stop taking up precious psychic space. I hope Pres. Obama realizes that the matter of torture is going to be in his way until it is confronted, just because it’s the nature of the thing.</p>
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		<title>By: pokums</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47626</link>
		<dc:creator>pokums</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:49:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47626</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;“We no longer have any moral claim, any valid justification&lt;br /&gt;
   for being there, if we ever had one.” &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;No, there was NEVER ANY moral claim, NO valid justification, for being there.  To even suggest there could have been is Overton Window stuff.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>“We no longer have any moral claim, any valid justification<br />
   for being there, if we ever had one.” </p>
<p>No, there was NEVER ANY moral claim, NO valid justification, for being there.  To even suggest there could have been is Overton Window stuff.</p>
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		<title>By: tiggrrl</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47603</link>
		<dc:creator>tiggrrl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:30:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47603</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I feel this is especially troubling given the U.S. efforts to stop wartime rape in places like the Congo, Darfur &amp; Liberia.  It’s too easy to pretend that wartime rape is something that happens “over there” by foreign soldiers, instead of something that’s endemic to war in general.  I wrote &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2009/06/torture-rape-and-war.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a piece about this for the California NOW blog&lt;/a&gt;.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I feel this is especially troubling given the U.S. efforts to stop wartime rape in places like the Congo, Darfur &amp; Liberia.  It’s too easy to pretend that wartime rape is something that happens “over there” by foreign soldiers, instead of something that’s endemic to war in general.  I wrote <a href="http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2009/06/torture-rape-and-war.html" rel="nofollow">a piece about this for the California NOW blog</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: sporkovat</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47554</link>
		<dc:creator>sporkovat</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:49:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47554</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I agree - it was entirely predictable, and predicted, that a Democratic President would continue his predecessors policies.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;just out of curiosity, did you vote for the guy?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;yes/no, how do you feel about that?&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I didn’t, no way I would’ve, and I feel great about it, especially when photos of civilian victims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are going around. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Progressives cheering on their new quarterback would do well to contemplate such photos - they are a logical outcome of what they supported.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree &#8211; it was entirely predictable, and predicted, that a Democratic President would continue his predecessors policies.</p>
<p>just out of curiosity, did you vote for the guy?</p>
<p>yes/no, how do you feel about that?</p>
<p>I didn’t, no way I would’ve, and I feel great about it, especially when photos of civilian victims in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Iraq are going around. </p>
<p>Progressives cheering on their new quarterback would do well to contemplate such photos &#8211; they are a logical outcome of what they supported.</p>
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		<title>By: Oval12345678akaJamesKSayre</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47543</link>
		<dc:creator>Oval12345678akaJamesKSayre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:36:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47543</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;On the Democracy Now radio show this morning (6-2-09), it was announced that we have 240,000 contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess that Obama wants to continue our illegal, criminal hostile military occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq for as long as possible. Obama is just another lying imperialist pig, like Bush and Cheney.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the Democracy Now radio show this morning (6-2-09), it was announced that we have 240,000 contractors in Iraq and Afghanistan. I guess that Obama wants to continue our illegal, criminal hostile military occupations of Afghanistan and Iraq for as long as possible. Obama is just another lying imperialist pig, like Bush and Cheney.</p>
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		<title>By: Larue</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47533</link>
		<dc:creator>Larue</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:16:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47533</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As someone somewhere this morning pointed out, “&lt;i&gt;two U.S. military officers, a senior defense official and a State Department official have told McClatchy. . .”&lt;/i&gt; do NOT make for a legit claim to the posit that al Maliki put pressure on.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;All the article REALLY gives as attribution is the phrase captured above.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;This is NOT a reliable sourcing job, this is NOT a reliable article, and it reeks of US Military/Pentagon spin.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;Please consider this information when reflecting on the pro’s/cons’s of releasing the pics.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I believe this article was spin, spin, spin. YMMV.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As someone somewhere this morning pointed out, “<i>two U.S. military officers, a senior defense official and a State Department official have told McClatchy. . .”</i> do NOT make for a legit claim to the posit that al Maliki put pressure on.</p>
<p>All the article REALLY gives as attribution is the phrase captured above.</p>
<p>This is NOT a reliable sourcing job, this is NOT a reliable article, and it reeks of US Military/Pentagon spin.</p>
<p>Please consider this information when reflecting on the pro’s/cons’s of releasing the pics.</p>
<p>I believe this article was spin, spin, spin. YMMV.</p>
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		<title>By: robspierre</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47509</link>
		<dc:creator>robspierre</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47509</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;You put your finger on the truths that all Americans already know at some level, but are still loathe to enunciate: we lost the wars and we deserved to lose. Once we’ve admitted this, we will need to ask why and how we let it all happen. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;The White House and Congress take their current, incoherent approach to the wars because they want to avoid the asking of the above questions at all costs. Official Washington realizes that, once the focus of interest in the wars turns inwards, there will be consequences. The process will take on a life of its own and no one in power will be safe.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You put your finger on the truths that all Americans already know at some level, but are still loathe to enunciate: we lost the wars and we deserved to lose. Once we’ve admitted this, we will need to ask why and how we let it all happen. </p>
<p>The White House and Congress take their current, incoherent approach to the wars because they want to avoid the asking of the above questions at all costs. Official Washington realizes that, once the focus of interest in the wars turns inwards, there will be consequences. The process will take on a life of its own and no one in power will be safe.</p>
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		<title>By: bluebutterfly</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47507</link>
		<dc:creator>bluebutterfly</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:53:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47507</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Using Maliki’s alleged fear of Iraq burning distracts from this that was reported last Friday. Petraeous is calling the shots, not Maliki.&lt;br /&gt;
*************&lt;br /&gt;
” In court documents filed this week, Gen. David Petraeus — the top U.S. commander in the region — argued that public access would have a “destabilizing effect” on Pakistan and other U.S. partners in the battle against al Qaeda.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;“Newly released photos depicting abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody in Afghanistan and Iraq would negatively affect the ongoing efforts by Pakistan to counter its internal extremist threat,” wrote Petraeus, the chief of U.S. Central Command.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;U.S. allies in the region already “struggle with their populations’ perceptions that they are merely instruments of the U.S. government and do not have their citizens’ best interests at heart,” and releasing the images “would likely deal a particularly hard blow” to American efforts in those countries, he stated.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;He predicted that a likely result of the photos’ release would be “civil unrest via spontaneous demonstrations in Pakistan’s largest cities.” “&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/29/scotus.detainee.photos/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITI.....ee.photos/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using Maliki’s alleged fear of Iraq burning distracts from this that was reported last Friday. Petraeous is calling the shots, not Maliki.<br />
*************<br />
” In court documents filed this week, Gen. David Petraeus — the top U.S. commander in the region — argued that public access would have a “destabilizing effect” on Pakistan and other U.S. partners in the battle against al Qaeda.</p>
<p>“Newly released photos depicting abuse of detainees in U.S. military custody in Afghanistan and Iraq would negatively affect the ongoing efforts by Pakistan to counter its internal extremist threat,” wrote Petraeus, the chief of U.S. Central Command.</p>
<p>U.S. allies in the region already “struggle with their populations’ perceptions that they are merely instruments of the U.S. government and do not have their citizens’ best interests at heart,” and releasing the images “would likely deal a particularly hard blow” to American efforts in those countries, he stated.</p>
<p>He predicted that a likely result of the photos’ release would be “civil unrest via spontaneous demonstrations in Pakistan’s largest cities.” “</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/05/29/scotus.detainee.photos/" rel="nofollow">http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITI&#8230;..ee.photos/</a></p>
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		<title>By: paz3</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47506</link>
		<dc:creator>paz3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 18:49:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47506</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The “bloodbath if we leave too early” argument is strong, especially in light of what happened to the Shia community after Bush I promised Shiites that we’d back them if they rose up against Saddam after the Gulf War.&lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;To Scarecrow @ 40, Obama knows what the nation has done, but how’d you like to be in his position? Don’t release the photos, catch (justified) flak from the Dem base, release the photos, and an increase in US troop deaths becomes a reality if Maliki is correct.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The “bloodbath if we leave too early” argument is strong, especially in light of what happened to the Shia community after Bush I promised Shiites that we’d back them if they rose up against Saddam after the Gulf War.</p>
<p>To Scarecrow @ 40, Obama knows what the nation has done, but how’d you like to be in his position? Don’t release the photos, catch (justified) flak from the Dem base, release the photos, and an increase in US troop deaths becomes a reality if Maliki is correct.</p>
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		<title>By: Scarecrow</title>
		<link>http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/5564/comment-page-1#comment-47502</link>
		<dc:creator>Scarecrow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Jun 2009 17:36:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://oxdown.firedoglake.com/diary/5564#comment-47502</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Exactly. The lack of accountability is the reason why the coverup - not releasing the photos — has to continue in the minds of those who don’t have the courage/stomach/integrity to confront what the nation has done.&lt;/p&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Exactly. The lack of accountability is the reason why the coverup &#8211; not releasing the photos — has to continue in the minds of those who don’t have the courage/stomach/integrity to confront what the nation has done.</p>
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