Erza Klein’s attempt to rebut Jane’s post about the importance of the Public Option is disappointing, because he restates points that are not in dispute, ignores the points that are and seems in denial about the politics of what he’s saying.
In addition, Klein reveals a serious confusion over the functions and properties of his favored "exchanges" compared to those of the Public Plan and regulation. I address that in Part II.
First, there is no disagreement that the current bills severely limit access to the Public Option by (1) separating it from the rest of the market by placing it inside an "exchange," and (2) limiting access to the exchange(s) in the initial years. I warned about the limitations of the "firewall" against open access in several posts. Thus, if the issue were only whether the Public Option can have a large or small effect — as measured by the number of people eligible to use it during the initial years — there’s no disagreement.
For the Public Option (PO) to become a transformative concept, we need to expand access to it, if not in it’s first year, then soon thereafter. I’ve argued repeatedly for the principle of "open access" to the PO for all individuals and businesses — even make the PO one of the options a business could choose in providing insurance to its employees through work. In other words, don’t artificially separate the markets in the employer-based segment and the exchange-based segment — and I’ve pointed out how that "Enron-type" "market separation" creates opportunities for gaming and cost shifting.
But I’ve also noted that given the current bills’ framework, expanded access would mean more subsidies and thus require more federal revenues and/or employer contributions. Again, I don’t think anyone disagrees that’s what we’d have to confront.
The dispute is about the more generic claim that a Public Option is not that important as a concept, which is how Klein’s earlier post came across. Since many of today’s horror stories about America’s health care system arise from the current for-profit private insurance structure, it’s extremely important to challenge that system with an alternative not subject to the current system’s flaws.
In the absence of a single payer system, providing a strong Public Option that can play that transformative role becomes a necessary (though not sufficient) condition for effective reform. This is the point Klein failed to address in either his earlier post or in his response to Jane. Why not?
Nor is there dispute that some of the worst offenses of the current insurance system could/would be addressed by regulation. The various bills would outlaw or mitigate some practices like denials for previous condition, rescission, and various types of discrimination.
I do not agree, however, that statutory/regulatory prohibitions are sufficient — my 30+ years dealing with a regulated industry, including 20 years as a regulatory attorney taught me otherwise. I believe the presence of a viable alternative, the Public Option, would reenforce the incentives the private insurers have to comply with the rules. If they found ways to evade the rules and abuse their customers (or providers) they could lose market share to the Public Option, enhancing its importance in making the rules effective.
I assume there is agreement that cost-efficiency measures within the provider networks are also essential. The Public Option is about insurance, not health care practices or provider costs directly. Nevertheless, it seems logical to hope a well-designed Public Option could exert positive influence on how the providers dealt with cost-efficiency issues. I don’t know how strong that influence would be, but it seems reasonable to expect the Public Option’s ability to negotiate terms of payments and acceptance within the Public Option’s provider network could affect those issues. I would also expect, but have no way to prove, that the Public Option would do a better job on that score than the private insurers. If it did not, it probably wouldn’t survive.
In sum, the Public Option would bring competitive pressure to bear on the private insurers’ rates, practices, and relationships with providers — all of which mean that the PO could, if allowed to expand, become a central part of the reform effort. Again, we agree that until/unless eligibility were expanded, these effects would be limited. But it is important to get the institution established, to show that it works and then push to have the expansion occur as rapidly as feasible.
As to the politics, the PO’s existence is being threatened at this critical moment. The threats are coming not from policy wonks but rather from the very industry it would challenge and the elected officials to whom the industry has been so generous. Reforming this industry, and failing that, replacing it, is a large part of what the reform effort should be about. If Ezra is right, and the PO is just not very important even if access were expanded, then the industry’s opposition would be silly.
But these are not silly people; they are deadly serious. The industry knows how central the PO is to their future profitability and perhaps, to their long-run survival as the exclusive middlemen through whom trillions of dollars will pass. We should be putting unrelenting pressure on that industry to shape up or be replaced.
The PO can become a transformative concept, once it’s put in place and allowed to expand. That’s why getting a viable concept in the final bill is so critical. The industry and its supporters know this, which is why they’re fighting it every step. I’m surprised Klein doesn’t see that, but his obtuseness on this topic is not helpful.
More from Krugman, Healthcare Realities, about why there’s no competitive market in health care.





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I had written off the public option but the action by progressive Representatives today breathed some new life into it.
Limiting access to the public plan and delaying its availability mean that it probably won’t have sufficient membership to negotiate with healthcare providers and BigPharma.
And we still don’t know what the content of the public plan, if it survives, will be.
It is my understanding that it won’t be allowed to coordinate with Medicare. I think this is a ploy to weaken its bargaining power and also possibly an indication that its coverage will contain less than Medicare.
I still think that none of this will work because I don’t see any of the likely outcomes controlling spiralling healthcare costs.
Thanks for keeping up with all this. I am really not sure who elected Ezra Klein pope. I certainly do not see him as being a liberal voice on healthcare.
Yes, the efforts to limit the viability of the PO have been unrelenting. The industry knows exactly what this concept could do. The weaker it is, and the fewer people/businesses have access to it, the less of a competitive threat it becomes to the industry — and the less effective it will be in influencing provider practices, incentives and cost-efficiency.
These are the battles that are taking place now.
I don’t think Ezra thinks of himself as the Pope — this isn’t personal — but he is very knowledgeable and lots of folks read him. So when he says something that undermines the efforts to create and retain a viable concept that could, if all goes well, be transformative and help all the other reform efforts work better, we have no choice but to respond to him. And I believe on the PO, as well as the functions of the exchange, he’s just wrong — we’ll see.
Thank you Scarecrow, another great post.
I’m so appreciative to Firedoglake for keeping this issue on the front burner. I heard some coverage on NPR this morning that gave me a little hope, but I also wondered about a key component that I haven’t heard much about lately.
What do the bills being floated around do to address portability? Lack of portability is one of the (many) huge flaws in our current system. COBRA hardly is a viable option for most people who change jobs.
Under “reformed” health care what happens to my insurance coverage if I lose my job?
in re: “Ezra Klein Still Doesn’t Get the Point…”
The term I use most frequently is “willfully obtuse.”
He doesn’t get the point as he doesn’t WANT to get the point. If he were to get the point, he would have to give up his preconceptions and fallacious assumptions and then wehe would he be?
Why he might then have to do some actual research to buttress his unsupportable points
Plainly viewable was decision to cordon off Single Payer Plan from being in this so called “reform” because it does represent most capable way forward of access,delivery and inherent cost(s) takeouts and containments.
This proposed ‘public option’ in wording alone sets up two nice targets for entrenched private healthcare insurers– public and option–public as a word in American practice implys odd notions of down market status and option suggests strange qualities of changing rules and unseen risks.
Score one for the current American healthcare regime(s) in having set this reform framing by excluding Single Payer Plan from the discussion.
This ‘public option’ was then set up as the best possible thing doable on the political side and reformation side–start with less and get farther kind of thinking–only problem the current American healthcare regime is still out to suffocate or kill it anyway by abusing facts and telling lies.
So this “reform” was compromised to please current regimes and make the politics “easier”–what is happening is a weaker plan is being attacked and run out of room to be anything but what the current regime can choke off,cripple and finally kill and use as weapon against real Single Payer Plan ever seeing light of day in United States.
The dummy Democrats instead of going with well known and well documented Medicare,VA or Social Security models try to propose what is to weak and easy to derail by the current entrenched for profit healthcare regimes.
Dumb idea to send out a weaker target thinking it will succeed because of imposed weakness–just easier to kill.
Why President Obama and the Democrats let this rope the dope ploy see light of day a true mystery.
True stupidity.
Thanks for this, scarecrow. I pretty much agree with everything you wrote but take issue with this:
One of the key points of this post of mine was that neither the economic superiority of public Medicare, for both the government and beneficiaries, nor its lack of profit-stoked bad behavior has prevented its private competitors — ie, the Medicare Advantage programs — from snatching an ever-growing share of its customer base.
The reason is lack of transparency on the things that matter — particularly the proportion of healthcare costs that an insurer deflects back to the beneficiary, regardless of the specific terms of the policy, after the policy is purchased.
An exchange that functions meaningfully would need to include straightforward comparative information not just on the differential terms of policies, premium prices, co-pays, etc., but medical loss ratios, statistics on mean and median beneficiary out-of-pockets, percentage of dollars going to administration, regulatory citations and warning letters, and the like. Even then, opportunities for diverting dollars from patients to investors will continue to be found and taken.
The private insurers are scorpions; profit-taking is their nature. Competiton from a public plan won’t tame that nature, just stimulate creativity for continuing it.
At this point in the game, methinks he gets it. He is not “stoopud”, so the alternative must be the most logical assumption. He is being paid to game it.
No one in the world can believe the US by now. They must be laughing their asses off. Every government in the world must be thinking, “this is great!” because as long as they don’t have a government run health care system, we are not in competition with them! As long as they don’t have employees that are cost effective, WE WIN!
pretty damn dumb if you look at the reality of the crushing of the US by it’s own rich people. They must have more “concerns” about the other countries that they invest in.
Any word on funding this plan are we still going to tax the rich or did the Blue Dogs get their way on that?
Since Congress are all so eager to get home and talk to We, the People, I suggest we each contact the major media outlets, print, tv, radio, online, and ask them to post a daily tracker of where we’ll be able to find our Congressperson and Senators so we can have that little talk.
WASHINGTON — An anti-abortion amendment to a sweeping health overhaul bill was voted down in a House committee late Thursday – a dramatic reversal just hours after the measure initially was approved.
The amendment said health care legislation moving through Congress may not impose requirements for coverage of abortion, except in limited cases. It was approved in the Energy and Commerce Committee after conservative Democrats joined Republicans to support it.
The portability issue needs more attention. Obama says we’ll solve that: “if you lose your job or move, you won’t lose insurance” is the way it’s phrased. But this is only true if the insurance you have is national and goes with you, rather than being linked to your job or your state.
That means that real portability and security during economic downturns requires that insurance be decoupled from work. And the policy you have must go with you, where ever you go, and no matter who you work for or whether your have a job.
A national PO could do that. A state-only co-op plan could not; you’re limited to staying inside your state to keep coverage. So when Kent Conrad says he likes these local co-ops, it means he’s not thinking about the portability problem. If, on the other hand, he means a “national co-op” to solve that problem, then you have to ask, “how does a national, member-owned/directed co-op with no government involvement actually work? How is it organized? How does it make decisions and how does it negotiate with providers to arrange the networks to provide the actual care? None of these issues has been addressed.
I agree that the exchange could provide a lot of useful information to help people choose. However, the problem with the “competition” between Medicare and Medicare Advantage is largely driven by the 14% subsidy to the private insurers. You can’t put much pressure on them if they have that large an advantage.
Yes, that’s good news for the bill, but now will have the anti-abortion brigade adding to the other themes. Health reform will: kill old people, socialize health care, but Obama in the medical exam room, reduce Medicare benefits (except for how to commit suicide) and require abortions.
The Blue Dog “concessions” did not change the surtax. They did reduce employer contributions but exempting most “small businesses” from the requirement.
Good idea.
it is just wrong to require insurance, force people to buy private policies and NOT limit premium.
that is something the insurance companies will pay big bucks to get–a much bigger market with no price controls. this will be the biggest wealth transfer in the history of the country.
The public option is a way of saying the insurance model works. At least to that extent, it is comparable to the co-op scheme. And, again, the president doesn’t regard the public option as key to reform. It’s just another interchangeable part that fits into the current insurance industry tooling. It doesn’t solve the issue of providing health care to everyone, it starts at some indeterminate point way down the road from now, and the bulk of the financing remains in the hands of the insurance combines who’ve made their fortunes in contracts with big business who have for donkey years made their fortunes from big fat longterm government contracts, motherfuckers.
I recommend the president ratchet up the ante straightway and propose instead single-payer commencing immediately on passage of the bill at the end of the year. If he’s to be accused of promoting socialized medicine, he might as well get it right.
Campaign Silo – Vacation Tracker
fyi -they are starting to post events on their FB pages
Mornin’ Professor Scarecrow – I love auditing your class :D
It’s really a shame that we are faced with trying to alter a very flawed system instead of either scraping it and building one from the ground up based on rational thought, literally copy a system out there which is working and could fit to America.
I am often reminded of clients who buy an old property which they want to alter, restore, repair, upgrade expand and so forth. Often there is so little there to save, but it seems wasteful to tear it down and start anew. However, this is often the most intelligent course, and may be less expensive in the end especially considering the result. The remodel approach is always a series of compromises with limited results. You can make it work, but the costs are higher it takes more time as well.
This is what we are doing now with the health care in this country.
We let most of our economic sectors degrade so they are only working in an inefficient manner, despite the fact that many make enormous money in the sector. This is true or finance, the environment, health as mentioned, energy, transportation, media, housing and education, not to mention the military which consumes enormous resources.
Limited access and gaming are two vital issues the design of a PO option must address or reforms will be greatly handicapped.
In its early years, a PO will attract exactly the risks the privates don’t want – the young and old, those with serious problems and the chronically ill. Its expenses will, by definition, be higher per person served under those conditions. That will be fodder for the Right and fiscal scolds, neither of whom want a PO to succeed.
Gaming will be easier to do when access is limited. Limited access will subsidize the privates’ profits and relieve the pressure on them to reform their current ruthless exclusionary practices. That, in turn, builds their power. That will stifle future reform, the continuing need for which will remain great, since the need to reform how we pay for healthcare is the entree into reforming healthcare itself. Both are needed to lower costs, without which the early case for reform will fail.
Oh, and we could use a few politicians willing to speak up for healthcare the way Russ Feingold and Sheldon Whitehouse speak up for the law. Sherrod Brown is a leader in this, but all of them are afraid of being Glenn Greenwaldized – being tarred as passionate and therefore unSerious and irrational because they’re right.
very good analysis
in the absence of the political courage from ostensible ‘progressives’ to demand a Single Payer system you are debating future hypotheticals about what a Public Option ‘might’ do to the for-profit insurance racket.
it is clear as can be that any plan concocted in the current environment will foreclose, by design, any pressure on the insurance companies, who are basically the ones writing the plan!
that they posture as opposing a PO is a win-win for them – they defeat it they win, they write it, it gets enacted riddled with loopholes, they exploit the loopholes and lack of regulatory enforcement, and feast on the new customers forced in by the mandate, they also win.
if a public option is so important, why are we okay with defining “day one” in the pledge as a few years down the road? I’m still absolutely baffled by the lack of attention to this.
I agree with everything you said in your post however I disagree with your characterization of what Ezra Klein is saying. I read his post and what seems to be apparent to me is that he isn’t saying the public option isn’t important. He is just saying its not the MOST important thing. And his contention is that whether you get a strong public option or a weak public option, the way the exchanges are set up will largely determine how much effect they have on bringing down costs. It won’t matter if we get the strongest public option in the world if the overwhelming amount of Americans are cut off from being able to buy into it. The insurance companies won’t feel much need to bring down their rates if they know they can’t lose many if any of their current client base. So it read to me more like he was saying that while the public option is important, its not AS important as the way the exchanges are set up.
And the truth is I feel like we should all be pushing Wyden’s proposal along side the public option as a one two punch because they should go hand in hand. If we get a public option but sorry exchange we lose. If we get a strong exchange but no public option we lose. While I am a huge advocate of the public option I really think we should also be pushing for a more open exchange so the public option will actually make a difference.
Ezra and Megan
Up in a tree
K-I-S-S
I-N-G
“Center-left”, “center-right”, libertarian, WTF’s the difference. The point of all their commentary is to lose sight of the big picture, confuse us with endless, pointless details, and drown us in a bucket of warm spit.
EK has bought into the “centrist” framing of the issue. It’s a requirement for his WAPO “position” (i.e. bent over for a kewlaid infusion). In his world it’s cost vs. care, and above all avoiding creeping socialism. WOW, he even got interviewed on The News Hour, where he infuriatingly but unsurprisingly represented the left limit of the debate. Limply.
We know the “centrist” solutions will solve neither cost nor care, but will further enrich and empower the Masters of the Universe. Which actually turns out to be our highest purpose and calling. Ask Geithner, Summers, and Bernacke.
Ralph Nader is sounding more and more like the reviled, but ultimately vindicated prophet, rending his garments, tearing out his hair and crying out the pitiful truth in the wilderness: It’s not Dems vs Rethugs, it’s the in-crowd vs the out-crowd. (Bet you can guess which we are.) You got your far-right to center-right Republicans and you got your right-center to left-center Dems. You got your David Broders and your Ezra Kleins. You got your transcendent, transparent, transformative President. And on war funding, gay rights, EFCA, mortgage cram-down, accountability for torture and illegal wiretapping, and health care reform you got dick. Er, that is, Rahm.
Ezra is very bright and very well informed on the issue. His opinion is no accident. He has the big media pulpit, he has access, and he’s had the implant. His purpose is to neutralize honest economic and political analysis by people like Krugman. Whether he knows it or not.
I’m with Matt Taibbi (and others) on this. If we don’t get real reform with a real public option, the Democratic party is dead to me. Time to really Move-On.
Thanks for all you are doing.
I was visiting the United States last week and was amazed at the public’s ignorance of how single payer works. They think (or at least the one’s I spoke with think) that the Canadian system is an unmitigated disaster that should never bew visited on the United States. They were surprised when I pointed out that health outcomes are significantly higher in Canada than in the United States, and at 40 percent less cost.
Krugman had a column on the stoopid this morning. It’s systemic.
Yes, the premise is the health care system/scheme needs repairs and upgrades. The president has described it as ‘broken’; something that needs to be ‘fixed’ when it would be so much simpler to just start from scratch. Your point about the degradation resulting from the tendency to repair things that don’t work rather than starting anew is well taken.
Whatever PO is set up will take time to put in place. If it were viewed as the absolute priority, I assume it could be open for business before 2013. I expect the delays were driven by the concern over CBO scoring.
EVen if the PO could start a couple years earlier, phasing it in, then ramping up when it’s ready is okay with me. I’m focused on what the system looks like in 10 years, not in 2 or 3.
Here’s one scenario for what could happen:
1. some of the “reform regulations” go into effect sooner than the PO/Exchange.
2. That means insurers can’t exclude people with new plans (existing ones get a grandfather period, which is what often happens when you bring in new regulations), which means those plans will likely increase in costs, because the risk pool will become more adverse.
3. As this happens, by 2012, there will be greater pressure to open the exchange/PO and make the PO available.
4. Which means by 2014, there will be a lot of pressure on the Sec. of HHS to open the gates much wider in 2015, 2016, etc.
It’s just a guess.
yep, (D) leadership took Single Payer off the table from the beginning.
They are the opponents, not the shrill, absurd, disempowered rump of the Republican Party.
(D)’s control Congress and the White House and still have the gall to try to play the ‘innocent bystander’ card, claiming ‘nothing we can do, we don’t have the votes’ just like before 2006, when they were pitiful in the minority, and could not block anything.
If they wanted to, Single Payer could be back on the table tomorrow, Obama could deploy his eloquence for the common good for once, and the USA could join the rest of the industrialized world in treating health care as a right rather than a profit center.
but they don’t want to, so why vote against one’s interests by supporting such a charade in even numbered years?
;
Yes, that’s a good column. I included the link at the bottom.
I’m less concerned about what Ezra Klein actually meant than about how what he said could be used to undermine a stronger PO. That’s the impression I’m responding to. Ezra can re-explain what he meant if he thinks I’ve misinterpreted him, and I’d acknowledge that if he did.
And Ezra Klein is the “wunderkind” of the corporate media? Is it any wonder they don’t have any credility with those who are on top of things yet bear far too much sway on those who are still in the dark. Seems like Klein wants to keep them in the dark. He’s a good lap dog that has apparently charted out his career path to riches, and pampered priviledge.
As Upton Sinclair once said, and I paraphrase “you can’t expect someone to know something when their paycheck is dependent on them not knowing.”
Thank you for the response. I found the use of “day one” in the pledge to be a bit misleading, once Jane clarified to Barney Frank that it doesn’t mean day one at all. I can see where having it down the road could be very helpful. I just don’t like it when our side is the one parsing and redefining words.
And that, I think, is key.
As to the national co-op idea, I used to think that might provide a nice firewall between Republicans in congress and our health care since they like to do everything they can to underfund and undermine anything decent and good. But that was a year or two ago before the debate really heated up. I’m now convinced that co-ops really are just a ploy to weaken the public option.
Ezra’s point is that the public option’s characteristics are of secondary importance if access to the PO is channeled through the bottleneck of co-ops. The character of the co-op becomes primary. He also characterizes Obama’s concern as keeping the existing employer provider system whole – to dampen the notion that he’s reforming and “to control cost”.
I think his reasoning is circular and his independent voice is in the process of becoming WaPoop-ized. What his observation misses is that keeping the employer-based system whole is tantamount to keeping the existing private insurance market “whole”. But “whole” or “intact” is non-descriptive.
Does it mean keeping privates’ profits high by not establishing a public insurer benchmark, by not competing with them, by not educating the public about its faults and a simpler, better cheaper way. Does it keep privates whole by NOT better regulating them, by not requiring that an “insurance contract” accept all comers without regard to pre-existing conditions or repetive, legitimate use of the services sold under that contract?
If so, this is reform without reforming. It would siphon off the expensive customers privates don’t want and aren’t covering now. It would be the most expensive choice, not the least expensive option possible. Which would insure that it fails and so do future credible reforms.
Ezra, smell the wind. It’s coming off the Potomac, not the heartland.
As fine a summary of the Democratic Party’s modus operandi as can be.
On the day LBJ signed the Medicare bill, Harry Truman became the first beneficiary and was presented his Medicare insurance card. Repeat, the same day.
Of couse, since that time, technology being what it has become, it takes many years to get anything done. The good old days of getting something done in a timely fashion are bygone days. You have to learn to wait, possibly, till after you’re dead before you can get what you need in the way of health care coverage.
An upfront cost to starting healthcare reform through a PO is that the initial enrollees will be the most expensive segment to treat. They are young, old, sick, longterm unemployed, the poor. Most or all of them will have a backlog of preventable illnesses: Routine dental work will have become a cap and root canal. Chronic illnesses will have progressed from outpatient treatment to inpatient dramas. Preventive care will be consumed like oysters at a Republican love fest.
That’s not representative of a mature plan or one that enrolls a larger pool of patients. These are transition costs. They have to be factored into not just cost, but the political theater of this reform. They have to be constructively framed, because we know the Goopers will do their best to frame them as the coming of the anti-Christ.
Those high costs are a function of delayed reform – not reform itself.
As someone on SocSecDis & Medicare, I am definitely not in the “Middle Class” of income. I want an extra strong public option WITHOUT private insurance subsidy. The total management costs of Medicare are so low because they have one form (paper & electronic) which is easy for every office to handle. Compared to the hundreds of forms that medical offices/hospitals need to make claims to private insurance companies mean extra staff time, extra phone time & more delays in patient care. As a person who has worked in a teaching hospital, I know that the insurance “Model” is BS. We need to fund Medical Care not insurance! Medicare For All – with changes to a strong primary care Wellness Model is the best long run move. We have to use our emails & phone calls to fight their $2M+ daily lobbying. And get to your Senators & Representative when they’re on recess. Tell them to go back to work & come up with plans that aren’t insurance, Pharma, for-profit hospital subsidies.
Yes, the government pays Medicare Advantage programs higher subsidies, but the programs also still overcharge beneficiaries in premiums and, more importantly, screws them when it comes to reimbursing big-ticket medical expenses, just like private insurers do for the rest of us, and seniors still opt for these plans because of marketing and lack of transparency.
“Extra” Klein is intentionally downsizing himself to fit inside the Boxed Bubble known as “The Dumbass Dufus”, and as I understand it here in the Sonoran Desert. To wit, the current debate on a public exchange is just another incarnation of the Neo-liberal Schema from 1994. And yet, there are still two “opportunities” and which speak directly to “medical care delivered.
Model One is the “expansion of the VA or expansion of the Indian Health Services”.
Model Two is the Single Payer Functionality.
Now, if “Extra” Klein was observant, he would do an overlay of History onto the “insurance exchange” was well as to the two above referenced Models.
He would find a wealth of data that speaks to “unassailable facts”. The Neo-liberal Modeal does not deliver “medical care delivered” but does enhance the deep pockets of profitability for the insurance providers.
As to “expanding either the VA or the Indian Health Services”, the existing “unassailable facts” have been annualized and publicly available, and which no one challenges, as to medical care delivered or to cost containment.
As to Single Payer, there is no viable history to judge accurately the merits for the implementation of Single Payer. However, if one takes a reasonable gander that has been provided with Conyers’ Singly Payer Schematic, their is no possible challenge to it’s proposed “success”.
Consequently, “Extra” Klein is not advocating a story wherever the “unassailable facts” take him, he is taking his story forward in order to acheive his projected result.
Now, if someone here at the Lake is willing to advocate for Klein, I am willing to take the time, and listen.
Jaango
FYI, I opted for a Medicare Advantage Plan because Medicare only pays 80% of my medical expenses in most cases, and it would pay none of my prescriptions unless I had a private policy. I couldn’t afford to pay the remaining 20% on my limited fixed income, nor could pay for all my medications out of pocket. Hence, Medicare Advantage Plan.
It would be great if you were allowed to provide the counterpoint to these blogs pushing a public option over, say, single-payer. There are often 2-3 blogs on the public option at the Seminal alone. By the same blogger. It’s as if single-payer were off the table. Oops. I forgot. It is.
Scarecrow,
Thanks for the thread.
In addition, I have posted a Diary titled, “Standing Tall for Honor and Equality”. This is from the Chicano Veterans Organization. Furthermore, during this August Recess, the Organization will contacting the Chiefs-of-Staff of the Members of the Congressional Hispanic Caucus. Thus, the ‘pressure’ will start building among the Spanish-speaking to insure that our Elected Officials are actually listening to our “demands”.
Jaango
So where are costs going to be in 10 years? As I said in my earlier comment, none of the plans look to control costs. And there are about 50 “ifs” between the public option and its ability to control costs. Despite all the happy, divorced from reality talk in government and the media, the economy still sucks and will continue to do so for years. Healthcare costs don’t look to be contained so their negative effects on the economy will be magnified. It all looks unsustainable to me.
As near as I can tell, what the health insurance companies want is comparable to what we have in TX now for Auto Insurance (ya know, to prevent accidents involving uninsured or under-insured motorists…). It’s required by law, price is “regulated” by competition, and the otherwise-uninsurable drivers get to use the high-risk pool called “county mutual” at rates that are frightening to behold. The mandate for insurance is enforced by requiring that you display a current insurance card every time you register the vehicle, renew your drivers license or renew your annual safety inspection sticker.
After multiple years of this program, we now have only about 20% of the drivers driving while uninsured (they just get the policy in time for their annual renewal, and then allow it to lapse after that), “coverage” doesn’t really cover you unless you have comprehensive (liability coverage is all that is mandated, but when you are in an accident, you can bet the other guy doesn’t have even that), and there are all sorts of “outs” included in every policy, like the company pays based on the amount of liability in the accident (both drivers are typically determined to be 50% at fault in the police reports even when there is clear cut fault in the accident, so you never get your auto fixed properly unless you can cover half the damage to it yourself out of pocket), and so on.
Basically what the insurance companies want is a law requiring everyone to have coverage, and setting up a “high-risk” pool that only the people who would be denied coverage by those insurance companies will be forced into, and that allows the insurers to dump people into it whenever they feel like covering someone will cost them too much profit. IOW, a system that is even worse than what we presently have.
Thanks, Ann. Yes, a selling point of the Advantage Plans is that they typically bundle Medigap and Part D coverage with the Part A/B coverage and often include preventive medicine extras like gym memberships. My sense is that, as with private insurance generally, it can all work out fabulously unless and until the beneficiary gets sick and incurs major costs that the company is incentivized to find ways to push back onto the patient. (Consumer costs can also skyrocket on private plans by experiencing a medical problem for which one is compelled to seek out-of-network care.)
I hope that’s not the case with your policy and/or your health status.
Blue Texan’s regularly scheduled post is up on the front page: “House Extends Wildly Successful, Popular “Cash for Clunkers”; Republicans Pout”
Well, I hate to once again put a pin in the balloon, but I was seriously ill (severe COPD complicated by a quadruple heart bypass) when I got on the plan, and recently I spent 8 days in the hospital with a severe case of bronchitis that was life-threatening. No reprecussions from the insurance people (although I did get a bill for $875, but it was a fixed amount that was in the book). I have fallen into the donut hole basically every year and have had to figure out ways to keep my most important drugs, which, of course, are the most expensive drugs. My copay for these is $39/each for four drugs. But they would cost anywhere from $75-$200 each if I have to pay out of pocket. One of the main things I’m worried about is, will the “fix” of the donut hole problem be put off until 2013? Will the “fix” even take place before I am too debilitated to care?
As I noted in this comment from a couple of days ago,
On the whole, for now, I try to support efforts here to promote the least-worst version of Obamacare achievable, but I have little tolerance for exaggerations about robustness or disingenuous misappropriations of single-payer arguments.
Ann, I’m far more glad that your insurance is working for you than concerned that it chips away at my argument. I could be wrong, but I believe HR 3200 is set to fix the donut hole before 2013.
Oops; donut hole reduced starting in 2011 but not fully phased out until later.
Yes, I agree that the point of much of the marketing is to provide false information about product differentiation, which then segments the market and allows for higher prices. And they get about 15% subsidy. I could probably make money in that scheme too, and since the subsidies allow me to undercut Medicare per se (or the product differentiation allows me to market against Medicare), that means Medicare has a weakened ability to exert market discipline.
Right. It’s a phase out.
This is a false impression. Anyone can post on Seminal, which is why most of my posts are here. Those are the same rules as when it was called “Oxdown.” The new Seminal authors are welcome and have their various points of view, but they do not decide what gets posted to the FDL front page. That decision is make by FDL editors, not Seminal authors.
I’ve never asked to be on the front page — sometimes my stuff shows up, sometimes not, and sometimes after the story has moved on; it’s not my call. But I am free to post what I want, when I want, here, and so is anyone else.
I was referring only to the Oxdown/Seminal front page, not FDL. It’s a minor honor, to be sure, but trust me, I checked. The last front-paged straight-up SP post was by libbyliberal before the Spermbank switch.
Even if there were no excess subsidy, the Advantage plans would be pitching their wares so as to dig into public Medicare’s market share. Recapturing that share would require more than merit; Medicare would need to start diverting some of its dollars into marketing as well. This is directly analogous to Kip Sullivan’s argument regarding the public option.
I don’t see a portability problem whether or not the PO is organized nationally or by state. If you lose your job you would simply be able to enroll in the PO wherever you end up.
The danger in the current system is your vulnerability to pre-existing conditions, take that vulnerability out of the mix and most portability issues seem to vanish.
Nor do I get the argument Ezra makes strongly and you somewhat less that the Exchange is not available to “most” people. This seems to miss the point. The exchange is open from day one (i.e. Jan 1 2013) to everyone that is currently in the individual insurance market and even more importantly to those who have no insurance at all. Those two segments would seem to be our first priority in any case, once we get coverage numbers up towards the targeted 97% then we can start worrying about the transition. Plus I am just not seeing the barriers here.
Per Sec 202 of HR3200 the exchange is open in year one to all individuals not covered by a QHBP and all employers with 10 or more employees (smallest employers), which would take in a big slice of small retail and professional, say your corner store and one or two lawyer practices . Year two expands that to 20 employees (smaller employers), and year three to many large employers. (p.70). Meaning that within 25 months just about everyone that is not in some sort of other government plan (Medicare, Medicaid, VA, Military, Government) is exhange eligible. In the meantime employers wanting to stay outside of the exchange only have five years to make their plans equivalent to a QHBP or pay a penalty.
It would help if Ezra or anyone would quantify ‘most’ and put it in a timeline, because having read through the appropriate parts of the bill some of the people I call the Single Payer Now! crowd seem intent on pointing out weaknesses in the PO and the Exchange that I am just not seeing.
Thanks for this perspective, but how does it square with the very low estimates for public plan enrollees put forward by the CBO? Your “25 months to ‘just about everyone not already in a gov’t plan’” description sounds far more optimistic than anything I’ve heard before.
Although I count myself among the Single Payer Now crowd, I fully support a public option, if we must have one, being as broadly and freely available as possible.
Note, however, that the most essential SP arguments against the PO have to do with the systemic diseconomies and injustices of preserving a multipayer for-profit insurance sector, whatever form and scale the public plan takes.
The basis for any public option should be:
Coverage for EVERYONE who applies
Structured premium payments of not more than 100 per individual, 300 per family
Deductibles capped at $2000 and based on income (means testing every year like the va)
No mandates forcing people to purchase insurance (a windfall for private carriers)
No triggers (also a windfall to private carriers)
No subsidies to private insurance carriers
No taxes on employer provided benefits
If someone has private insurance and wants the public option, they can drop private with no problem and be covered immediately under public.
No mandates on employers to buy into the public option to cover employees. Has to be free choice.
Everyone with coverage gets treated for new or pre-existing conditions.
Fairly negotiated reimbursement to private pracitce, specialty doctors and hospitals
Fairly negotiated prices for medications, even on name brand stuff which has no generic equivalent.
AND IT HAS TO BE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY. Within 1 month of the above bill passing, Americans must be able to start buying in and using it.
It must be administered by an autonomous federal agency. Monies paid in must not be co-mingled with any other money, does not go into the general fund so it can be looted.
The ONLY payouts from this fund will be for: payments to practicioners, pharmacies and admin. In 5 years if we see significant overages, those overages will be used to suplement medicare and fund medical research.
See my next post on funding
47 million un insured
20 million under insured
Subtract 10 million poor/indigent/mentally ill, etc, who are uninsured and will have to get free care = 37 mill un-insured who can pay.
18.5 million can pay $50/mo = 925,000,000
18.5 mill can pay $100 = $1,850,000,000
20 mill under insured will switch and can pay $100 = 2,000,000,000
That is a grand total of $4,775,000,000
That is FOUR BILLION, SEVEN HUNDRED SEVENTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS IN PREMIUM PAYMENTS PER MONTH. FIFTY SEVEN BILLION THREE HUNDRED THIRTY MILLION PER YEAR IN PREMIUMS FOR ONE SET OF PEOPLE.
That does’nt count the millions who’ll switch from private companies if they can pay $100 or 200 per month and have their entire family covered even with pre-existing conditions. Repeal bush tax cuts asap another 700 billion.
After thinking about it more, institute a 1 penny federal sales tax on EVERY item. I can hear the opponents shouting about making the poor poorer, but my statement is 1 cent on each item NOT on every dollar or hundred dollars. From candy bars to big screen tv’s to your house. 1 cent on everything. If your grocery bill was $100. for 53 items, your bill would be $100.53. That’s not putting people in the poorhouse especially when we’ve been dealing with price increases. Also, if you’re saving 300-500 per month on insurance, you have that money to spend and put back in the economy, save, or invest.
Well, if anybody ever thought that public option was complicated and hard to sell, this post sure disposes of that notion!
I just love it that “Day One” is 2013*, because any sane person would assume that actually getting help from the party of change would happen, well, before the next Presidential election. The bait and switch continues…
NOTE * Just goes to show how far vague principals take you. Of course, “I’d expect to hear “We never said what Year One for Day One was going to be” well, from some other party than Democrats. Or would have expected.
I’ve been blogging about at Seminal for days now and have been exchanging with Jason a good bit in the comments. You can check to see how it’s working out here.
Thanks for reminding me; I’ve been meaning to catch up on your posts and comment threads of the last few days. I commend Jason for consistently engaging with people of different viewpoints, although I find that when faced with a rigorous challenge, he pretty much floats off to a non sequitur or responds to an unrecognizable caricature of the point actually being made. Here in the Sperm Bank era, though, I’m consciously less brutal than when selise and I used to tag-team kick-box him. (I hope selise is having a great vacation somewhere and hasn’t been, you know, kidnapped or something.)
Thanks ralphbon,
I think Jason has been exchanging with me pretty well. We usually get to a point though, where he can’t explain the pathway from the PO to SP, and can give me no reason why he thinks this pathway will emerge based on HR 3200. I believe myself, that the theory of the public option folks predicting the evolution of single payer based on HR 3200 is misplaced and even quasi-religious, since it’s not associated with any sort of detailed reasoning.
I’m also thinking more and more that postponement of Day 1 for the exchange and the public option until 2013, is a death sentence for the bill, because the reform will be viewed as so meager and inconsequential that the chances are good that a Republican will win in 2012, leaving the implementation to people who want to kill the bill. Proponents of the public option view themselves as realists. But the expectation that such a complex bill with so many restrictions will win support from public in the short is the epitome of optimism and very hard to believe.
The very people who are so quick to say that Medicare for All cannot be sold to the American people, in the next breath tell us that a “reform” shaping up as a giveaway to the insurance companies, will by 2012 be popular enough among the American people to persuade them that a Democratic Administration and Congress should be continued in their work so that the evolution to a more effective public option and eventual single payer system might occur. It’s very hard for me to believe.