Part I. Who’s the Enemy?
After Karen Ignagni, the personable head of America’s Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), saw that President Obama and the Democrats had decided to make her insurance companies the enemies of "health insurance reform," she came up with the logical response: blame those greedy doctors and hospitals.
There’s a lot going on this AHIP-fed NYT article, which highlights an AHIP survey of provider charges/fees that insurers get from doctors and hospitals. The AHIP survey, and the additional Times sources, tell us that there is no rational pricing system apparent for doctor/hospital charges, and no apparent connection to what Medicare pays:
A patient in Illinois was charged $12,712 for cataract surgery. Medicare pays $675 for the same procedure. In California, a patient was charged $20,120 for a knee operation that Medicare pays $584 for. And a New Jersey patient was charged $72,000 for a spinal fusion procedure that Medicare covers for $1,629. . . .
The survey, insurers and some economists say, shows the sort of irrational pricing of medical care that is an integral part of the nation’s health care problems and that is largely being ignored, some say, in the current debate.
“It’s the wild, wild West when it comes to prices of anything in the U.S. health care system, whether for a doctor visit or for hospital charges,” said Jonathan S. Skinner, a health economist at Dartmouth.
The situation is so irrational, said Uwe E. Reinhardt, a health economist at Princeton, that it simply cannot go on. “We will not emerge out of this decade with this lunacy,” Dr. Reinhardt said, adding, “You worry about credit card charges, you scream for consumer protection — why not scream for it here?”
The article does not explain what accounts for this irrational pricing — I’ll return to this in Part II — but instead moves on to the huge disparities in payments and collection rules between providers that are part of an insurer’s provider network and providers deemed "out of network."
Here we find examples of insurers getting charged more by out-of-service providers and if/when such charges are denied, the providers are free to collect the difference from the patients, even when the difference would have been paid if the providers were within the insurer’s network.
So, America’s insurer/provider payment system is irrational and arbitrary and discriminatory. But what else is the article telling us? First, Ignagni and AHIP have been perfectly willing to be cooperative partners in health care reforms as long as they got a guaranteed market with no competition from a public option for the 30 million or so people who might gain insurance under the "reform" bills. That "reform" was just fine.
But the moment the White House and Nancy Pelosi said AHIP’s practices are part of the problem that needs to be fixed, AHIP very quickly pointed the finger at doctors: "You should look under that rock, where the providers do their billing." I can’t wait for the providers’ response.
As I explain in Part II, What I Learned from Sis, I suspect Ignani’s right, but when was she going to tell us? And now that AHIP concedes there is massive price discrimination going on between in-network and out-of-network services, how exactly does the reform that was just fine two weeks ago deal with this glaring problem?
Of course, AHIP didn’t tell the Times that one way we could fix the discriminatory part of the pricing system would be to provide a common shared risk pool, a common payment protocol and eliminate the irrational distinction between in-network and out-of-network. The common insurance scheme would pay all providers for their services using a non-discriminatory payment scheme. I wonder what that reform would look like?





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And that doesn’t begin to address the massive price discrimination going on between billing insured patients and billing uninsured patients.
Oh, and the new, saccharine AHIP television ads are nauseating. “Your health insurance shouldn’t…” Yeah? Well it has…for decades now, and AHIP is the reason.
Feh.
FunnyWheelieDiva
This attack by the healthcare insurance industry on the healthcare provider industry is a welcome case of “thieves falling out.” It also hints at an explanation for the AMA’s unexplained endorsement of Obama’s healthcare reform before the details were on the table, i.e., he has cut physicians a sweetheart deal just like he did the pharmaceuticals industry.
But, so long as Obama cuts deals with each industry segment, there can be no real healthcare reform, because the healthcare crisis is an economic one: everything costs too mucu, and it costs too much because of corporate welfare to the insurers, the providers, and the parmaceuitcals. (Specifically, the U.S. spends two and a half times as much per resident on healthcare as the average industrialized nation, which is 17% of our GDP compare to 10% of theirs. And we don’t have superior healthcare.)
Well as I listen to last-night’s Maddow, I’m increasingly realizing what a masterful plan the wingnuts have yet again.
This whole health-care debate has turned into a win-win for Republicans. Going into the break, those of us on the left had grand ideas of taking advantage of the break to push legislation in a more progressive direction.
Instead, we’re wasting our time debunking the blatant lies from the right.
Keep in mind the watered-down, compromise bills working through congress are already looking pretty good to Republicans. They could easily be Republican bills.
By going full-tilt they’re keeping us from debating any real improvements to the lackluster bills to the very worst-case scenario from their point of view is they get a health care reform bill that still increases profits for all of their corporate masters. And if they can move anything even the tiniest bit to the right, that’s just icing for them.
We should find some left-wing fringe groups to make up ridiculous lies about how contracts with private health insurer’s actually give them power of attorney to end your life – or even give them ‘ownership’ of you in a very literal way. Let them waste their time debunking lies instead of propagating their own.
So, the insurance people are now on the run and not the attack, nipping backwards to divert the wolves off the track and on to other fertile ground.
We don’t have to make up lies; all we have to do is tell the truth about the status quo.
To the falling out of thieves. That is what happened with the Clinton healthcare plan after the great agreement too. The difference is that in the Clinton healthcare plan, the scramble was over who was going to get more. In the current situation, the fight among thieves is who is going to take the hit.
But the attack on providers distracts from a debate on the solution. In fact, the bill does deal with providers but not in the legislation itself but in the process by which rates will be determined and regulations developed. Trying to fix the rates problem in the legislation, will make it even more lengthy and cumbersome.
AHIP needs to realize that the public option is the price for getting the rate-setting commission for Medicare, Medicaid and by formula the public option. Without the public option for those currently not eligible for Medicare or Medicaid, the only way to deal with provider costs is single-payer Medicare-for-all.
Yeah, those nasty doctors. They keep trying to find ways to get the insurance companies to pay them for the work they do taking care of sick people. Shame on them.
Those “costs” that we hear about for providing health care in the US are not actual costs for providing health care. They are inflated by including huge big pharma and big insurance and for-profit health plan profits and their administrative expenses.
There must exist admin cost, if one is not paying cash directly to the physician. If one writes a check, there’s bank fees, credit card fees, etc. Let’s stop bashing and look for solutions.
Yah, and there are also mammouth profits and don’t forget overhead for paintings and jets and travel/conference for team building, etc, etc.
And, and, and…I forgot!…there’s the cost of fooling old folks into demonstarating and voting against improvements in the health care system! Almost forgot that one!
A referendum on single payer health care insurance. If you support single payer sign these
http://bit.ly/HR676
http://bit.ly/single_payer_ross
It is not rocket science for the price differential. Medicare is the problem in pretty much every aspect. $584 paid by Medicare for any type of knee operation…are they kidding. For the average knee operation, let’s say a meniscus repair, you are going to need the surgeon, anesthesiologist (another doctor), two surgical nurses and typically 1-2 surgical techs, does anyone here honestly think just getting these people into a surgery center is going to cost $584? This would cost 5-10k easy. My point with this is…the hospitals and MD’s have to bill other people higher because of Medicare’s shortcomings.
If the argument turns into that medical professionals make too much money, try capping the amount they make and see what happens. There will be a mass exodus of health professionals at a time when we need more. The Government solution for health insurance will not work….rationing will be the end result.
Great supportive article http://www.salon.com/opinion/p…..own_halls/
Dean, insurance companies have to make up for what Medicare will not pay. Read my previous post.
Price discovery IS a problem! Hospitals, doctors, and pharmacies should all be REQUIRED to post prices for medicines and procedures. I was diagnosed with breast cancer in 2007. I wanted to find out how much my treatment would cost, but I could not get that information. When I wanted to have some extra tests done that my health insurance would not cover, I was unable to find out what those tests would cost. The healthcare / insurance system in this country is completely broken!
Yes, but don’t you think they may be asking a little too
much from the insurance companies?
If they actually handed us the bill, it might be a little
less.
Also, if we get rid of the big pharmaceutical and insurance companies, who is going to take their place? You can probably make an argument for the insurance companies, but the pharmaceutical? Do you honestly think the government is going to be able to do what a private company can do? The government does nothing efficiently. Pharmaceutical companied build efficiencies into every aspect of creating a single drug and it still will cost them a billion dollars for a drug that may never make it past the food/drug administration. When that happens, they take a complete loss on the drug, or take it back to steps to fix the problem.
Let’s do this. Our elected officials can operate all business, thereby eliminating profits. We can each day report to our appointed positions, receive food tokens, government television, government issue automobiles, etc. I wonder who’ll have the pleasure of riding in the jets then?
LKN2, I understand your frustration, but for something as serious as cancer, how can anyone associate a cost with that. No doctor is going to know the cost until there is a accurate prognosis, and then it is still even difficult with all the treatments available. What you went through is incredibly personal, and what hopefully worked for you, will not work for the person in the room next to you.
Some things you can price like getting a physical, having a mole removed, and other simpler procedures. Something like cancer, AIDS or any long term chronic diseases is next to impossible. I am guessing there are sites out on the web that can give you averages for treatment, but other than that I think you will be out of luck.
Exactly, that is the argument behind medical accounts.
I did some research regarding health insurance companies
I invest in companies that I think will provide a good return
The profit margin of health Insurance companies is far less
than the average standard and poor company.
What you pay for health care for insurance company profits
is about 1 to 2 cents on the dollar.
I assume you mean medical savings accounts.
HSA’s? Do you support or oppose?
I don’t believe anybody wants to “get rid” of the pharmaceutical companies. I believe what they want to do is level a playing field. I, for one, would like to know why we here in America pay so much more for drugs than all other countries. I want to see some negotiation of prices. I know, for instance, that my Advair costs anywhere from $175-$225 if I purchased it out of pocket. It comes in a plastic disc and I doubt it costs all that much, even with the research that went into making it. That goes for several other of my drugs that I need to live. When I fall into the donut hole, which is about to happen, I will have to pick up these charges myself on a fixed income or do without, as do many other Americans. Plus, the drug companies are hardly hurting for money. Their profit margins are legendary!
Who does Karen Ignagni believes pays the bills? It’s AHIP’s members fault we are in this mess.
My Son had a hernia operation in about 1990. When I question what I believed were excessive charges the insurance company was not interested in questioning the bill.
“These charges are typical for this procedure” was their response. AS the payers of bills, and with the information at their disposal, who do the insurance companies believe should be responsible for questioning huge charges?
Individual consumers don’t have the information. Don’t the insurance companies have a fiduciary responsibility to both the shareholders and their customers?
It’s a safe investment. Hence the p/e ratio. You are confusing share price with profit as a percentage of revenue.
Support, with a catastrophic insurance solution of some kind.
Yes, but I was looking at profit margins, not
in relation to the price of the stock.
I understand what you are saying completely. The unfortunate fact of pharmaceutical companies is they are in the business to make money and keep their share holders happy. Any time the “playing field” is leveled meaning government regulation, the companies (doesn’t even have to be pharmaceutical) will have to weigh that as additional risk when starting the pre-stages of researching a product. If the ROI is not a certain percentage greater than the risk, they simply will not create what ever the product is, in this case drugs like Advair.
I am a conservative and I do wish things were not like this in the pharma, or any other medical industry. Unfortunately they are, however the way I look at it is…my health is worth it. If it wasn’t for these companies to start, many of us would not even be here right now (I was 6 weeks premature and would have died if not for these companies). I take Advair 250/100 every morning myself and it does make my quality of life better, so I am thankful for it. In a couple years, this drug will become generic and reduce in cost quite a bit, but for now, I have to pay the high cost for a new drug.
These companies do not owe us anything, and if we try to push them into doing it our way, or the governments way, they simply will stop what they do best. I certainly do not want to see that.
Lastly, I am not saying with any of this that health care is not a problem, it most definitely is and we will not be able to sustain these costs over the long term if something is not done. Single payer is definitely not the answer as the government has no way to control costs (zero incentive).Medical saving’s accounts are an ok solution, but require people to be responsible for their lives. There are probably many other ideas that would be good as well that I have not seen yet.
But they don’t have to be “like this.” If their need for high profits has to do with the expenses of research, those expenses should be ammortized over the rest of their customer base as well, not just the U.S. customers. Also, if their research expenses have to be covered by the citizens of the U.S., they should go through the NSF and not exhorbitant healthcare costs. That would be more economically efficient and probably give us better results.
I am not being rude to you, but you obviously do not know much about business. It doesn’t matter if your Pharmaceutical or opening a sandwich shop, if you have not figured out a business plan that will realize x% results after x time period, you don’t do the endeavor….doesn’t matter what it is. Feel free to test this yourself, Go open a business and sell everything at cost and see how long you remain doing what you are doing.