Nice post. A minor point, though: “beg the question” doesn’t have the same meaning as “raise the question;” rather, to beg the question just means to give a circular argument. Lots of support for the blog!

medicare-for-all …

Because if you give it spin, then no one wants it, and the insurance companies win!

Even Chuck did run down a few instances this a.m. about beliefs of the polled that were totally wrong on what is being proposed to offer U.S. citizens for health care. It’s pretty crazy.

This is probably the most immoral statement I have heard during this entire health care debate. Sean Hannity would rather see 15 million people suffer and die than see health care reform pushed through.

You have to see this to believe it.

http://progressnotcongress.org/?p=2608

Im seeing that this was a backroom deal, “negotiated” at the white in the very beggining. The backing off the PO was planned and the white house is becoming infuriated that we wont just roll over and go along with their wonderful “reform”. Polls, the white house and corporate media aside, all we have is the whip count project in the house. We have to hold those Reps. to their promise,or we face being railroaded into a MONSNTROUS bill, that forces us to buy insurance from the rigged, monopolized private “market”. NO PO? then NO GO for BO.

Explain that one to me again? My grammar skills ain’t what they used to be, so you might have to take it slow. :)

I would rather see the “reform” bill die, than to be forced into the WH’s “compromise” that leaves 47 million at the mercy of the immoral, rigged, insurance indutry.

Has HR 676 gotten lost in the bipartisan lovefest or is it just waiting spring loaded for September? http://www.HR676.org

Like….”We just found this on the shelf and it solves everything”

How come the “democrat” in the go-pac ad in the right navigation looks like ralph reed?

More bad lies does nobody take pride in being a Crook anymore?

The Kucinich Conyers bill. Even they dont expect it to get a fair vote.

I assume that Rahm if he really is a Chicago Politician will Ban NBC and Chuck Todd from any White House coverage and interviews with all Dems until Chuck admits he pulled a fast one comparing apples to oranges.

hey has there been any polling on the individual mandate, you know, forcing people to pay premiums for patchy coverage to the insurance cartel?

Seems the Democratic Talking Points advise people to minimize attention on the mandate, but hey, if you have polls saying people are excited about that notion, let us know!

some smart folks are wary of it, and are warning that passing such a thing bodes ill for the future electability of your beloved Democratic Party.

tjfxh comments over at Ian Welsh’s place:

http://www.ianwelsh.net/shorte…..inflation/

If this plan is reduced to a patchwork, as the trend seems to be heading, then it won’t work, and, as Ian observes, it will create a “rent” for industry and a “tax” on consumers. Since this tax will be extremely regressive, it will be unpopular with a whole lot of people. Moreover, since virtually everyone will be forced to pay this tax by buying health insurance or being penalized, it will be doubly unpopular, maybe even wildly unpopular. as the economic screws continue to tighten further except for a privileged few.

the Public Option is the figleaf, the mandate is, well, you know what figleafs cover…

A: “Our polling shows that Americans overwhelmingly oppose Death Panels.”

B: “So… you’re saying that means they’re against health care reform?”

A: “Well, obviously!”

Yeah and no deal with the drug companies I want to pay the same for drugs that Mexicans and Canadians do! Sheesh why do American drug companies hate Americans and charge us more than they charge everyone else in the world?
I bet the drug companies are Commies! Do they sell their drugs in Russia for less than they charge us?

Which bill? The Senate HELP bill? The House Bill? HR 676? The Kucinch amendment? ’cause Obama does not have a bill, he is just sending out smoke signals. and Todd is just making stuff up.

I’m with Scarecrow, no public option, no mandate: http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/7337

loosely related note – messaging

being reported WH is to begin emphasizing the moral imperative/social benefits of Reform – (fashionably late :D)

some Kossack has helped them out by quantifying things – MediCare has produced an extra Half Billion hours of Life since it’s inception

you can read the wonky goodness here

gawd I love the hippies!

What has become of HR676? The Medicare for all bill in the house.

http://www.hr676.org

Will it be the October surprise that rides to the rescue of single payer?

jw87’s right – “to beg the question” means to not answer it, assuming it is a settled issue. For instance, when politicians discuss health care reform, and just assume single payer can’t be done – they don’t even respond to the question “why not Medicare for all?”. They beg the question, dismissing it out of hand.

You perhaps meant that there is a question just begging to be answered… sort of. NBC’s coverage raised the question.

Because our senators are for sale. Why are insurance companies exempt from the inti trust laws every other company and individual (citizen or not) is subject to?? why did the axlrod/obama nexuss NEGOTIATE for ending of abmonible business practices, that should simply be made illegal?? because our senators are for sale.

Calling Obama…. “Bo” has unfortunate implications, but I appreciate the general thrust of your ideas.

i dont need to see hannity ever again to know that he will continue to be immoral, hyperbolic, and wrong.

we call him OB

Well, I’ll say that if the WH (or whomever it is appearing to begin to maybe start standing up, if that is possible) ends up turning this around after letting the Puke’s crazy car go to the rails, it will be quite the event.

Still you would think the Drug Companies would follow the old rules about how you don’t steal in your own neighborhood. Cause well someone might recognize you.
Instead the drug companies have turned this rule upside down and they only steal (overcharge) us!
The drug companies hate America! They Charge Commies less! They hate Democracy! Plus and this is what I find truly insulting the drug companies think we are Stupid enough to keep on falling for this lame scam!

Isn’t it standard practice when you change a question in a poll you announce the change and the reasons behind it? Don’t you show the old wording of the question and the new wording of the question and then explain why you made the change?
By not doing this Chuck has stepped into Judy Miller Journalism

great! but what if they cobble something together with a fake PO but a real mandate and Obama turns on the suaveness and asks that it be passed?

what should progressive congresspeople do?

what should netroots leaders do?

what should regular folks who care about this stuff do?

a fake PO would only have to be barely plausible to peel off a few wavering congresspeople who took the pledge – bribes and threats coming from the WH could not be countered by a grassroots known to just vote (D) no matter what, anyway.

the nightmare scenario of no (or fake) PO + mandate is bad news for Democratic electability for a long time to come, as well as being a naked giveaway to the insurance cartel.

HR676 is a house bill introduced by kucinich and conyers, its a separate bill, its a house bill, and it has nothing to do with the white hose. Its basically, medicare for everyone single payer

Yeah its what the wingnutz call him, one of the less offensive things they call him but im not one of them. and the “implication” you hint of have nothing to do with the way i carry it. BO ( not Bo) rhymes with PO.

It’s called price descrimination.

it is a “naked giveaway to the insurance cartel

The Tea Baggers are really a Commie group because by fighting to keep making Americans pay higher drug prices the drug companies can then sell Kim Jong-il Viagra at cut rates!
Do to patent protection which I assume is still in effect we are the only supply of Viagra. Given Kim’s level of weird we can safely assume he buys the stuff.
Assuming half the stuff the wingers say about him is true.

I believe that any corporation will charge as much as they can get away with,and give as little as they can get away with, at all times. The insurance industry and PAHRMA have paid for the lax regulation they enjoy, and we suffer from. They may even pay more for laws than they would have if their industries were less crooked.

So the Tea Baggers like being discriminated against they like being took? Well anyone who can listen to Glen Beck.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hannity is as loony as the people who are constantly leading the news of the day because they are ignorant disrupters of civil discourse, and who provide the sensationalism required for TV ratings. He interrupts any guest who has a different view than his, no matter the issue. Why we bother to be surprised at how this buffoon conducts himself, his extremist views, and even the fact that he revels in disdain for the less fortunate, eludes me. I expect nothing related to humane traits to come from any Fox Noise employee. The Aussie who controls this zoo is as unAmerican as one can be. He’s in it for the money and so is Hannity and the rest of the Fox cabal…

I agree corporations will charge any price they can get away with. Me though I don’t like being Played for a Simp!
The Tea Baggers are fighting for the right to be victims of a rather lame con.

I doubt all drug companies hate America.

It’s more likely that they spend a lot of money developing a drug (pill, ointment, whatever) that is very cheap to actually produce. They charge Americans a lot for the drug (to cover development costs) because they can afford it.

If it costs $100 to develop a pill, and 10 cents to make it, 100 Americans need to pay $1.10 per pill to cover costs. But then they can sell the same pill in Mexico or Canada for 15 cents and make a profit.

For example.

hey Jason!

about that um, poll:

NBC/WSJ Pollster Has Long Standing Ties to Insurance Industry

kinda ’splains Todd’s nervousness last night on Tweety now don’t it ?:D

They should spread the costs to everyone equally. Yes we are a rich country but its still wrong to rob from the rich especially when you are rich. Also the drug companies spend on advertising people get sick they see a Doctor why the need for advertising except to artificially boost sales of patent protected products that may not be any better but they are different enough to qualify as a new drug.
Which means the drug company that made it gets the exclusive rights to make it or charge a franchise fee and they charge people more.
In a sense we have a drug creation system geared to create new patent protected products and not to cure disease and help people.
The free market has failed.

Can’t get the link to work it might be me the coffehouse net connection is dodgy.

Marketing. Marketing. Marketing.
Marketing costs dwarf actual development costs.
Development is expensive, but it’s not the driver of final drug prices.

FWDiva

If it costs $100 to develop a pill, and 10 cents to make it, 100 Americans need to pay $1.10 per pill to cover costs. But then they can sell the same pill in Mexico or Canada for 15 cents and make a profit.

Sometimes we forget to factor in how much of the retail cost goes to the Pharmacy in which it is purchased. I know that when I was in my twenties, I briefly worked for Walgreens, and I was shocked when I learned, due to my discount on drugs (cost + 10%), what I paid for my birth control pills while I worked there was $1.10 instead of the $2.95 that I paid when I was not working for the company.

“Yes we are a rich country but its still wrong to rob from the rich especially when you are rich.”

Good thing you don’t feel that way about taxes.

That’s an interesting point I hadn’t considered.

But then where is that money going? To ad agencies, TV, radio, newspapers. None of the cost of marketing goes to the drug companies so maybe someone else is the villain here.

That doesn’t surprise me, the pharmacy has to pay it’s employees and keep the lights on too.

Too many people think that the cost of health care (not health insurance) is just spent money that’s lost. It pays the salaries of lots of doctors and nurses as well as construction workers who build hospitals and manufacturers who supply beds and medical equipment, etc.

Link has two http:// in it…see if this works.

Pollster Behind Controversial Public Option Poll Has Long Ties To Insurance Industry

In keeping with Chuck Todd’s view, on the Rachel Maddow
show,” regarding the four identified healthcare bill
myths, Rachel asked, “How do you move people, how do
you actually fight?

First you take it out of the realm of “talk” by removing
the myth factually. Feelings are based on, are generated
by, the underlying person’s values. (If they really don’t
care, no emotion.) Prove their value isn’t violated, the
emotion collapses. If its another value then they must
face that their emotion isn’t coming from “the myths,”
but something else, (like covert racism, or covert
Obama is anti-christ/illuminati disguised. or…

So, the solution is either in a preamble, a separate section,
or an amendment, to every proposed healthcare bill going
forward, a simple straightforward statement that applies
only to the bill in question. Let’s model it on the one
from Obama’s first executive order 13489 ** Sec 5 c

“c) This order is not intended to, and does not, create
any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable
at law or in equity by any party against ………..”

Possible model:
This Bill herein is not intended to, and does not, create
any right or benefit, substantive or procedural, enforceable
at law or in equity by any party:
For supplying this healthcare coverage to any illegal
immigrant.
For any government monies whatsoever, however raised,
(be it taxes, fees, rebates, claw backs, or premiums and
the like) being spent to cover performing or materially
assisting any abortion in this bill.
For the government take-over of the substantively
whole US healthcare system in this bill.
For the US government to financially force the private
insurers out of business in this bill.
For supplying the elderly, and/or handicapped, with
healthcare of lesser degree than generally made available,
or withheld, based upon their age or existing condition,
in this bill.
For decreasing existing healthcare coverage under
the US Gov VA and/or under the US Gov Medicare, in this bill.
For having a living will, or consultation for same,
being required, and/or irrevocable at will, in this bill. ***
For excluding funding of proven successful alternative
protocols, in this bill.

(I am not an attorney, not a doctor, and what I say
is neither to be construed as legal nor medical advise.)

Make it very easy for anyone to look it up, that’s
why putting something like this in a preamble, or
its own section, would be so powerful. How can a
Republican refuse to sign the bill with anything on
the included list as his cover rationale? The beauty
is in defusing the emotional sell and pins the Republicans
down to weaker and weaker fringe arguments that in the
end highlight their funding sources as dominant.
At the same time by referencing this bill specifically
it does not limit further changes by succeeding bills
in future years with the required votes to pass, so
it doesn’t preclude the far left from signing it either

**Pres. order 13489 found at fas.org/sgp/obama/presidential.html

***And I suggest a family discussion guide booklet
supplied online or by mail for topics and neutral
questions that stimulate discussion, and an
approved legal form with preset choices and add
your own spelled out choice box with ample lines
in every section, with a 30 day waiting period
before it takes affect after any governmental
consultation, only waive-able if a person is already
on life support, or an immediate death sentence
prognosis, and their primary significant other
person concurs,( spouse, child, contractually
named other.) And revocable at any time in writing,
or auditory recorded statement, by the signor.
(Such formats also provided.) Available to take
and do at home, well after any governmental
consultation. Not legally sign-able within 3 days
of the consultation. So notary must witness patient
signature and witness signature more than 3 days
later than gov consult.and not on or in gov facility,
(with same exceptions if critical situation.)

2. Has no one else noticed that end of life is
precisely the age group Medicare does cover?
and it already covers end of life planning I
believe? The living will in the current health
care bills is a bill aimed at those under 65 years
of age, right?
Doesn’t that make the “death panel discussion”
irrational to you? Granny is usually over 65.
And, Living wills are revocable. Yet no one points
this out. Again take away the basis for the
emotional reaction for the vast majority.

3. Do any of the bills’ versions address what
happens when someone reaches 65, yet? Do they
automatically move into Medicare and off the
public plan? Is there an overlap period for
the transition? Do they keep the same doctors?
Are all medical records made available to the
Medicare Dr’s/system immediately, following
the patient? and if the same doctors serve both
Medicare and the public option and how does this
affect physician’s pay sources? How many times
must procedures be used successfully long term,
to move from experimental, to covered for
everyone in the program? Will low cost options
like the Linus Pauling Protocol for heart disease
or the Johanna Budwig Protocol for cancer be
funded and included****? (both known/proven
for 20+years)

****At the least this will scare the hell out
of the pharma and be a great political bargaining
chip while informing the public. See Dr. Tomas
E. Levy’s book, “Stop America’s #1 Killer” — a
good interviewee, or Owen Fonorow’s book, “Practicing
Medicine Without a license? The Story of Linus Pauling
Therapy for Heart Disease” – another good interviewee.

Keep asking new questions that help inform us!
ES. http://www.rollerskatesunlimited.com

Yes, yes it does.

Yeah, that makes sense, I think…complicated grammar!

Another new poll as discussed over at ThinkProgress shows the NBC/WaPo poll to be way off the mark.

Just 34% of voters nationwide support the health care reform plan proposed by President Obama and congressional Democrats if the so-called “public option” is removed. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey shows that 57% oppose the plan if it doesn’t include a government-run health insurance plan to compete with private insurers.

This poll should be more than enough political cover to even use reconciliation if need be. http://thinkprogress.org/

I am not 100% certain on this – I know I read it somewhere – but it is my understanding that most of the research for new drugs is being paid for by the government. The pharma companies pay big bucks to folks to add something to change the “formula” by a fraction to patent it.

If this is true, then it’s still the pharma manufacturers who make out like bandits. Having worked for a very small pharmaceutical manufacturer for a while, I know even on their scale (not able to purchase with enormous bulk discounts), they were making millions of tablets for less than US$10.00 in many cases.

The actual tablets, or capsules or gelcaps, etc., really are enormously cheap to manufacture. That’s why you can buy 100 “Acetominiphen” at Dollar General for a buck, even though you have to pay $8.50 at Walgreens for Tylenol.

I take it, then, that as an HCAN staffer, you’re not OK with polls that mishandle questions on public option, but that you’re perfectly OK with years of polls that never poll on Medicare for All or single payer at all?

Remind me how this is different from what Lanny Davis does?

Probably don’t need to remind anyone here that Firedoglake led a whipcount to find which members of Congress would support the Public Option.

It worked: 60 members of the House made it clear they won’t vote for a bill without a public option.

Yesterday alone, FDL and partners raised nearly $100,000 for progressive members of Congress who agree to draw a line in the sand over a public plan:

http://campaignsilo.firedoglak…..nd-rising/

You, too, can offer carrots to these progressive politicians at ACT Blue:

http://secure.actblue.com/cont…..hermometer

It’s time we beat the lobbyists at their own game.

Or from what Chuck Todd did?