It was dismaying to read this. But it’s important to understand the problem is external to the coalition, and not within it.
Misunderstanding among friends is to be expected when external forces are working very hard to undermine the solidarity of groups that otherwise have a common goal and should remain united against far more important concerns.
Despite President Obama’s unhelpful comments — see here, here, and here — about his and our support for the public option, his gratuitous and condescending comments today about the "left" — and when did we start defining "the left" as between 57 percent and 77 percent of the public? — make it clear that the White House’ strategy is to paint anyone who insists on a public option as a threat to the goal of passing a health care reform bill.
And it is only a small step from there to arguing that doing anything to undermine the likelihood of getting a bill passed is an argument in favor of a failed Democratic Congress and a failed Obama Presidency. Everyone agrees there is much at stake here.
The White House wants a bill, so they obviously prefer not to have potential allies making demands that limit their flexibility. But they also don’t need to be defining important segments of health reform supporters as enemies, as people who would naively push the Democratic Party and this Presidency into failure when having a choice of a public option has the support of over 70 percent of the public.
This White House has, through sheer tactical incompetence and disingenuousness, lost too much credibility on health reform among its own supporters. They did this to themselves. But it means that supporters of genuine health reform, whether they are powerful unions or lowly bloggers, will find themselves looking over their shoulders and blaming each other. The White House has created this, and we should stop blaming each other.
Whether this destructive condition is a deliberate, foolish White House strategy or just a result of Rahm’s bumbling and I’m-in-charge-of-everything insecurity, the rest of us need to stay focused on the prize, and not on each other.
SEIU and other unions have been strong, indispensable supporters of getting a robust public option established, because they understood, as some in the White House apparently do not, that a strong, viable alternative to private insurance would, as the President has argued, help keep private insurers honest.
The mere existence of a functioning PO represents the ultimate hammer of enforcement for industry reforms, an alternative if the insurers continue to screw the public, and a means to reduce costs and put downward pressure on premiums. If designed well, it could lay the foundation for a broader, gradual transformation. And the transformation would occur on a pace defined by the American people, based on their own voluntary decisions to choose the PO or something else. It is a powerful argument, for which the industry has no answer. The industry understands this well, even if the WaPo and other Beltway pundits do not.
Among the coalition of public option supporters, there has always been a tension between those who favored that transformation and those workers who might fear the transformation coming so quickly that it undermined hard-won employer-based insurance coverage before the replacement was ready. That natural tension was resolved by limiting and phasing in eligiblity to the exchange/public option, but allowing the Secretary of HHS to open the gates further by 2015. In a sense, a "trigger" is already in the various bills, and that IS the compromise.
When 2015 comes, we will face the question again. But we are not there, and there is no reason why labor and other coalition members should not remain strongly united now.
Marcy’s post also appears to equate undoing of the public option with a complete denial of health care. Where did this idea come from?
I’m a strong advocate of the public option, given the choices before us, but even I have never suggested such an unqualified equation. And there is no basis to suggest the major unions, let alone SEIU or its leadership, favor reform bill provisions that would result in a denial of care.
Stay together, folks; the enemy is out there, not among us.





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Hear, Hear!
United we stand.
Dean tellin Rachel again that there will be a bill with PO passed in September.
I’m still trying to figure out Obama…but I was also struck by his condescending comment about the left getting “excited” about his waffling on the Public Option.
Why TF does he love the Repukes so much and not the people who put him in there with the largest majority in a very looooong time?
I’m really beginning to think he’s just a lazy man who won’t fight for anything if it’s the least bit difficult.
Thanks for the post. Obama’s confusing everybody
Fantastic post.
Fantastic post.
Interesting that Obama refers to us as the Left.
I don’t recall him referring to Grassley and others as the Right.
did I miss something?
why the discrepancy?
Not only is Grassley not “the right,” but Obama went out of his way twice, today, to praise Grassley for how hard he’s working to get a bill. The “left,” on the other hand, is insulted. An occasional misstatement is one thing; but this desparate treatment is a pattern.
SEIU is not the problem. By a long shot.
And another fantastic clip of Jane!
needs some Calcium?,Viagra………………….meth……..he looks comatose
is this about 2010? wtf?
we are left of Ted Nugent
blaming each other.
—————-
i blame a national shortage of Lithium Salts
Obama appears to be very different once he became president.
The health care issue will be more telling than the economy boondoggle. Obama was forced in a sense to take the hot potato that was handed to him. he could have handled it very differently but he almost has a reasonable excuse – it wasn’t his initiative.
But the health care matter is something he campaigned on and if he really is going to go for change – it means pulling back the curtain and exposing the sham of insurance as basically criminal enterprise which steals enormous money – legally, and kills and bankrupts hundreds if not thousands of people every year – legally. THAT IS THE problem. So if he changes that he would be threatening the old boys club.
Health industrial complex dissembled.
But there are others out there preying on the public to take on:
the media industrial complex
the military industrial complex
the energy industrial complex
the telcom industrial complex
the food industrial complex
Do you see a pattern here?
knock knock yoo hoo
The attacks from the Right are ludicrous and easily dismissed by rational people. The reason Obama is pissed at the Left is that their criticisms reflect reality. He can’t respond to the message, so he endeavors to marginalize the messengers.
we need to communicate that not only do we need a PO but it has to be a strong PO. For the PO to exercise an effective policing function on private insurers it needs to be big and national – it needs to be a price setter that’ll force the privates into the role of being price takers. Only then can effective industry (healthcare industry, not just insurance industy) cost-growth containment be achieved. The math has to work, irrespective of the politics.
the media industrial complex
the military industrial complex
the energy industrial complex
the telcom industrial complex
the food industrial complex
————————-
indentured servitude to the corps
your chocolate ration is 12oz this month,a sharp increase,are you pleased?
The WH takes this stance, and Congress as well if they do likewise, at their peril. They underestimate the soul and the limits of those that got this President and this Congressional majority elected. We did not vote for personalities. We voted for these people to pass and implement policy that we support. If they shaft us, we will at the least disappear. At the worst, we will turn on them in favor of another that shares our passion for more progressive values. Almost three quarters of the country support a public option incorporated into healthcare reform. If that isn’t enough to get it done, this is the wrong team.
Healthcare is a unique issue. It is not an absract political point of view. It is not some ideology. It is a check we write every month from our stretched household budgets. It is a sizeable bill we face each time we need service. It is a continual fear of denial, cancellation, of doing without. It is the ever present insecurity of everything that we have worked for and aquired in our lifetime at risk. Healthcare is a “concrete” daily, real life, potential nightmare facing everyone in this country. To mess is up for political reasons is not only unforgivable, it is the most stupid political calculation this Adminsitration and this Congress can potentially make of our generation.
Excellent post for this starting point.
I am actively involved with the Chicano Veterans Organization, and we have been advocating the access for non-veterans and to the expansion of both the Indian Health Services and the VA. And since the taxpayers subsidize both medicial systemics, we have found that taxpayers are willing to have their taxes increased should the possibility come to exist that world class medical care can be easily achieved and delivered should our fellow taxpayers agree with us.
Therefore, to make this happen, the political demand must be made to our Elected Representatives. And if not, accepting the worst that America has to offer, is unacceptable.
With this being said, we, organizationally-speaking continue to support our “compromise” and that being in the form and function of Single Payer. So, come and join us, and collectively we will insure that America can still accept the “best” that America can offer to all of us.
Jaango
dear kassandra
Obama ran for the office of the Presidency in order to continue the consolidation of a corporate, authoritarian police state that has has been underway since the tenure of Ronald Reagan, at least.
That is what he fights for, as he demonstrates clearly week in, week out.
Obama’s campaign won Adage’s MArketer of the year award for 2008:
but you know what? good marketing is like deep-frying and sugar-dusting Lies so that they look lovely and taste oh so delicious.
Has Obama followed through on anything he campaigned on, besides escalating American warfare in Afghanistan?
this is what all Democratic candidates for president do, and voting for them enables them to continue to do it.
I generally dislike polls because they are easily skewed and interpreted to produced a desired result, but I love the fact that the public option polls so strongly. That makes it harder for Obama and his lieutenant Rahm to marginalize us as “the left.”
Well said.
August 20, 2009
Americans: Serfs Ruled by Oligarchs
By Paul Craig Roberts
Americans think that they have “freedom and democracy” and that politicians are held accountable by elections. The fact of the matter is that the US is ruled by powerful interest groups who control politicians with campaign contributions. Our real rulers are an oligarchy of financial and military/security interests and AIPAC, which influences US foreign policy for the benefit of Israel.
Consider America’s wars. As of the moment of writing, the out-of-pocket cost of America’s wars in Iraq and Afghanistan is $900,000,000,000. When you add in the already incurred future costs of veterans benefits, interest on the debt, the forgone use of the resources for productive purposes, and such other costs as computed by Nobel economist Joseph Stiglitz and Harvard University budget expert Linda Bilmes, “our” government has wasted $3,000,000,000,000–three trillion dollars–on two wars that have no benefit whatsoever for any American whose income does not derive from the military/security complex, about which five-star general President Eisenhower warned us.
It is now a proven fact that the US invasion of Iraq was based on lies and deception of the American public. The only beneficiaries were the armaments industries, Blackwater, Halliburton, military officers who enjoy higher rates of promotion during war, and Muslim extremists whose case the US government proved by its unprovoked aggression against Muslims. No one else benefited. Iraq was a threat to no one, and finding Saddam Hussein and executing him after a kangaroo trial had no effect whatsoever on ending the war or preventing the start of others.
What did Americans gain from an unaffordable war in Iraq that lasted far longer than World War II and that put into power Shi’ites allied with Iran?
The answer is obvious: nothing whatsoever.
What did the armaments industry gain? Billions of dollars in profits.
If you’ve been following the dispute about how to ask the question wrt to the public option, it suggests that the idea of “having a choice” is what’s really polling well. It seems to be a very strong message that people respond to. So it’s a mystery, or at least ironic, why this Administration, which is having such a hard time finding a winning message/framing for its health reform initiative, hasn’t grabbed on to something that seems to resonate well. Dean has been framing the merits using “let the American people choose, don’t let the insurance companies force a choice on them” for weeks.
It was interesting today that Obama used the imagery of “belts and suspenders,” as in the new regulations to probibit denial of coverage for prior conditions, end of rescissions, etc, are the belt, and the public option is the suspenders. They reenforce each other. But of course, most men don’t use both — so is that the best image they can find? Jeez.
The ones to blame for this health care mess are in the White House right now. This is Obama’s fault for catering too much to Republicans (who have shown him nothing but contempt and derision), ignoring progressives aggressively, and sucking the toes of the blue dogs. It is a self inflicted wound on Obama and his questionable staff, not the so-called “left”.
Are 77 percent of the American “far left” because they want to have health care for their families like EVERY INDUSTRIALISED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD HAS?
This is maybe an OT and personally girlie comment, but I thought it was so interesting to see that Jane Really toned down her makeup when she was on Rachel’s show. You know how they do the double screen thingie, well, it worked well. I say. I know. Not relevant much, but it points to just how strategic our Jane is. Smartish cookie.
When she’s on David’s show, she can look as glam as she wants.
This site, like KOS and others believe that this system can be made responsive to the people, that the constitution and the laws we have means we can have a government is ours not the corporations.
I don’t know that I can support this belief. I think by now it is rather naive.
What these sites have done is brought together critical thinkers, rational people who for the past several years have been mobilized to support the democratic side of the money party. It’s not working out.
How many defeats in THIS rigged system will it take for the people to begin direct action? To take to the streets and bank pots and go on strike and “storm the bastille”? The petitions and faxes and contributions are not cutting it.
While you can’t advocate the overthrow of the government you can advocate protest and that is the next
step. The rigged system is not going to yield any more.
What’s next?
They will do anything, it seems, to avoid a straight-on discussion of this.
Many have been screaming this for years. But no one is listening because the stealing goes on.
America is about making the rich richer. It’s that simple. The rich made it that way while everyone turned themselves into mindless bots dumbing down on consumerism and propaganda, selling them poison, feeding them poison, working them like worker bees, having them die and kill in wars of no purpose.
What are we going to do about it?
Even when the truth of these lying scums comes out – nothing is done.
Change we can believe in.
Of course Obama is different. (1) He has a different set of advisers, who are attuned to the tactics (right- or wrong-headed) of governance instead of campaigning; (2) he is encapsulated more in the security bubble than he was on the campaign trail; (3) he spends more of his time meeting, greeting, and negotiating that giving speehes; (4) he is less able to make extensive campaign-like swings through the parts of America in which local coverage can drown out the Village.
That was the stupiest analogy I have ever heard – absolutely made no sense at all.
The man is avoiding the obvious.
Health care reform means that profiteering (of insurance companies) of the health industrial complex needs to be ended.
To say that is unamerican – it’s treason and people lose their lives for this.
I think it’s perfectly fine to challenge the Prez. I think a strong progressive minority can stop the rape and plunder of “we the people,” and that’s what needs to happen.
We can elect-and-re-elect the progressives to stop both the conservaDems and the Rethuglicans, and I think that’s what our mission should be.
The Progressive Minority can only stop the march of rapaciousness by being the actual “Party of No, None Of This Corporate Bullshit!”
What’s next? A March on Washington, September 13; Robert Reich’s idea; Rep. Chaka Fattah is introducing a House resolution to allow it on the Capitol grounds (most likely West Front and toward the Mall.
That direct enough for you?
Obama is not stupid. He knows the deal.
He is either a liar and a scam artist.
or
He has some grand strategy of out foxing the right but it will take years.
or
He is scared and has been read into the program and his hands are tied and he is a puppet like Bush, but with a higher IQ.
or
He has been threatened, blackmailed or similiar and will not upset the apple cart.
Choose one.
Funny (well, not funny exactly) thing is, the town hall is the perfect format to sell something, and he continues to bring greater indecision to each one.
If his plan is to punk the Left, and he insists on doing it in town halls, we haven’t yet seen the worst of it.
I always show up for demos.
I’d like to see some national strikes as well.
Even just one hr work stoppages all across the nation to signal how many we are.
we keep talking till a plan is formulated that has all the elements of good skirmish warfare(economic warfare)
can he read blogs???? ………..g
Way to be in your face. I get tired of reading rant, rant from the coziness of one’s computer. I know, I should be more tolerant, but sometimes empty questions get on my nerves. I do understand the disappointment and anger, but, still, thank you for your comment.
((Tar))
The blogs are proving to be a great organizing force. MoveOn has quite the email list.
It is time to call out the troops. Mobilize with the www
I agree. So far the math on where Obama is going with his insurance bill doesn’t add up. I see no cost containment.
scarecrow, I’m assuming that the enemy out there is Obama along with the Iron Triad of insurance, BigPharma, and the medical industry. The Admininstration is currently pushing co-ops. If that doesn’t work, we should expect the lamest public plan imaginable, all air and delayed until somewhere far down the road.
If the PO is to be real, it needs open membership in 2010 not 2015. Waiting 5 years gives insurance companies and their bought politicians 5 years to smother and/or discredit it. Also we will have 5+ years of no effective cost controls which the PO is supposed to force the Iron Triad into. Those costs are exploding. We don’t have 5 years to wait.
And as I have pointed out before, we have a high likelihood of depression in 2011. This is going to blow to pieces all of these timetables anyhow.
I’m glad you get out to “demos”. That’s good. I was worrying for ya. Just was hoping you weren’t using all your energy here. Really. Good on ya.
We, at least myself, can’t read minds to ascribe mindset or motive to others. But what we can do is ignore those situations, and focus on what we want.
I say, who cares about Obama’s agenda or what’s in his mind? I know what I want, and it’s No Mandates For Shit. Not to mention the transparency and civil liberty fiascos.
The message of “Count on One Term Obama if you don’t deliver real reform, cause you know what? Yes We Can Unseat You.”
I’d rather be the loyal opposition than the fucked over door mat and I am sure I am not the only one who thinks tat way.
The interesting thing about the health care issue, is that the polls are showing that the pols are not getting it, but the people are.
This is becoming a problem.
The teabaggers are trying to appear bigger than they are and getting tons of help from the MSM, but the pols read the polls and know where the people are on this issue.
Why are they not acting in the interest of the people? Who are the acting for? Why? Campaign contributions to remain in office? How tacky eh? How easy they are to be bought? How corrupting the system is. Even the so called party of labor is now the party of capital.
Pssst… Right now, the President is speaking to the Obstructionists, softening them up… its called Politics, don’t take it so personally.
the taboo around 3rd Party and (I) activism and advocacy has got to end – and it is crumbling rapidly in some areas.
powers of Denial probably stronger among kosniks.
what is needed is issue based social movements combined with 3rd party activism, agile and adaptive to grass roots needs in a Great Depression II situation, impervious to the wheedling of the corporate sell-out Democratic Party . . .
in the absence of that the only ones in position to harness populist outrage resulting from prolonged mass unemployment will be on the far Right, and we know that is a very bad thing.
Obama doesn’t want to, or so appears, to rain on anyone’s parade. That means the profit takers in the health industry. He promised them that.
He’s trying to get the expensive people covered and that will
cost too much
or drive profits down so it won’t cost too much
He can’t do the latter because he promised the profiteers he won’t rain on their parade.
He cant do number one because we can’t afford it – ie provide health delivery at the inflated prices of the profit driven system. The pukes won’t let him do number one and the people can’t see having their children pay for it.
So he just talks about belts and suspenders and blathers nonsense.
passing affordable healthcare,will immensely help the average americans purse imo
Parties don’t matter, only votes and voices. I’m Green Party registered and vote Democratic. Focus on getting millions of voices mobilized for a strong PO, not launching yet another indie party. In my humble opinion.
Why do some insist everyone do things or act they way they do?
Let me suggest that you watch Obama and learn.
The left expected a knight on a horse from Obama. A great transformational leader.
He doesn’t seem to be anything but an articulate intelligent W.
I think that is very true.
How are you, dear? Haven’t talked to you in quite a while. You were gone for a little bit and I’ve been working.
Learn what?
Exactly, all I seem to be hearing is he not responding the way most whites would.
Again, watch and learn.
I choose:
He’s muddling through like every other President we’ve had. The White House organization is larger than the immediate campaign organization that he was working with on the campaign. It is full of strong egos (if not prima donnas). People go off in the own directions or try to delegate upward to him. The leakproof campaign has become the communications sieve. He is going around trying to keep the plates spinning (the juggling image, not the PR image) on more than just healthcare. The media invents stuff, that even those skeptical of the Village take as gospel. There is overanalysis and a progressive version of Kremlinology that might be called Rahmology.
Now to your choices:
He is neither liar nor scam artist, but poker player; he doesn’t show his hand in negotiations; so much for transparency; negotiations and transparency rarely work well together.
He has a grand strategy, but Rahm Emmanueal also has a grand strategy; those two strategies don’t always mesh well; strategies are subject to events created by the opposition; the grand strategy becomes more imperfect as events unfold and must be readjusted.
Any President who goes to a town hall with a guy outside carrying a firearm and a sign that says the tree of liberty needs to be watered again doesn’t scare easily, knowing that the Secret Service is good but not perfect. He’s been read into whatever the intelligence services choose to tell him; information was hidden from Panetta for four months, so I wouldn’t say that his hands are tied yet; he has been handed the tails of two tigers to hold – Iraq and Afghanistan – and that ties him somewhat – but not on domestic issues.
He has been threatened publicly; there is probable little to blackmail him with or the birther movement would have never been invented.
It’s easy to oversimplify and be naively cynical. But running an organization with 3 million employees is a complicated business. If you’ve ever worked in a corporation with even 10,000 employees, you will know what I mean.
Maybe because everything outside of their little tiny scared egos is threatening?
Even here, apparently.
How to get what you want while others claim you are losing the battle.
The progressive can re register as Greens or Libertarians.
Let the dems see an exodus of support.
But vote against the right.
Exactly.
OK, you know what? You might want to walk that back.
That is grievously offensive, and you apparently do not know your audience.
Oh yea of little faith.
We know he reads blogs, but we don’t know which ones. And we don’t know how much time he sets aside to read them. Moreover, we don’t know what blogs his communications staff reads.
Apparently you haven’t been following Obama, you’ve been following FoxNews.
imokay,held a heaalthcare rally at a local Sat.Market…i hired a bluegrass duo ,andtaught them THIS LAND IS YOUR LAND….we gave out 850 printed healthcare reform brochures in 5 hrs…and still doing the pet rescue bit….needless to say 8 more hands,and some more r and r would help…alas…howsby you dear demi?
Who are you? Yoda? What exactly are we supposed to learn? And by what method? Because the only method available is observation, and observation is yielding that Obama is not transparent, not keeping promises, and not doing what he campaigned on.
Never have, worked in a large organization, never will, but I can imagine it to be daunting.
I still don’t think he is doing what he promised. That is troubling.
Me either. Maybe there tr0lls out here.
One of the things I think that the Village is missing is that “independent” is not necessarily “centrist”. Greens and Libertarians would be classified as “independent” but neither are particularly centrist. And not all libertarians are distinguishable from Republicans, at least around here.
i do admire his courage………………i have no effing idea whats in his head……….i wish he would spill it
This is America and you can think what you want but I don’t understand why there seems to be a double standard for President Obama.
I am not saying adopting their policies, but setting up a national third party is expensive and time consuming.
But the left can send a message by changing their registration to NON democratic. Let the dems see their expected support drifting away.
What is the double standard for Obama?
You mean not honoring campaign promises?
Change we can believe in was a marketing slogan?
Have you ever heard the phrase, “Never let anyone outside the family know what you’re thinking?”
i know one thing fur sure
i luuuuuuurve Jane pushing Obie to make a commitment to 77% of us silent majority
GO JANE
You beat me to It SanderO.
What exact double standard is applied here? For instance and inparticular the promise to negotiate with PHrMA on C-SPAN so they would be forced into sunlight. Yet it those deals happened behind closed doors. THat’s a clear violation of a promise.
Respond to that charge directly united4change.
is that like Mafiapspeak?….hope he reads a lotta FDR
Don’t know you. Maybe you’re new, or maybe just because I’m here less than I used to be. If new, sometimes folks don’t “get” the nuances or non-verbal and take a lot of flak from old timers. Many folks here are very welcoming and understanding. Some tend to take offense more easily than they probably would like. We’re all humanbeans.
I like your handle, by the way.
And, when the crankies strike, just duck and keep going. It’ll be fine.
The thing about large organizations today is that they are not hierarchical, they are “matrixed”; what that means is nobody really knows who four departments over has be tasked with what, and it takes a lot of time to figure out exactly who you should be talking to. Even if you’re the top guy, you don’t know the tasking three levels down the chain of command without asking multiple people, a task generally assigned to and aide.
Second, leadership often finds itself in the position of direct reports delegating tasks upward, ostensibly to get decisions.
Third, there is incessant competition among peers at each level for the possibility of promotion. And if not buffered, people can even begin to do end runs around the expected tasking or even worse actually sabotage work in order to move in, pick it up, and look like a hero.
Fourth, the interpersonal relationships are complex, because of personal friendships, histories, etc. that cut across the stated chain of command. The more people, the more complicated the relationships become.
and
WHATS THE MATTER WITH KANSAS
Katherine Sebelius…….imo
You beginning to sound like some of the folks I see at the townhall meeting.
Obama has been in office for 7 months and has to fight, FoxNews, the GOP, rightwing radio, bigots, big business and our fake MSM. I apologize that he hasn’t cleaned up the mess created over the last 30 years since he’s been in office.
WELL SAID
Who cares about the persons time commenting on a specific site? What is relevant is the content of the opinion, and should be backed up with relevant facts, or just stated as opinion, rather than as a “fiat.”
I think that is all that is being challenged here, and if you want to call that “cranky” then fine.
That’s why I don’t fit in there.
But note that the right seems to control these organizations and get all marching in lock step.
I feel you.
Did you challenge Bush for unlawful detentions or FISA?
left of left,was really un called for,and disrespectful imo
It’s frustrating isn’t it
Kelly, do you like tea? Here’s a cup. No problem with you.
I have my opinions about context. I have my own thoughts about comments here, based on three years here and how I read people. My comments to others have just as much relevance as any others. It’s okay.
I get that. I don’t get some of the BS that has gone down.
Secret deals with Pharma
Not going after the criminals ( of the past adminstration) Remember every crime is committed in the past and prosecuted in the present.)
Not getting out of Iraq
Not closing Gitmo
His admin has sent the DOJ to support Bush policies and the courts on state secrets. YIKES
Well, see, that’s the root of the problem. We are supposed to be inside the family. We were led to believe that we were. And we returned that confidence by delivering the office of the Presidency of the United Frickin’ States unto him, yea verily. But now that he’s got it, we’re on the outside of the family?
Fuck that.
dayyyyyyyyyyyum……………so much is riding on this for so many people…life or death for some
I don’t recall when FDL began but I was one of the first on here before Trex.
Do you not understand there is no bill, all we have are proposals from different committees. Why should he put all his cards on the table now?
Earl Grey. Hot. :)
What I would like is some substantive comment from united4change in response to my challenges.
It’s all good when it’s real.
We do have a Family inside the beltway on C street. It’s freakin scary too.
How about Obama commenting on the religious right trying to run the show.
Left of left, sorry I don’t get it.
because he is supposed to be the one leading. This was his campaign initiative.
Do you remember he wanted a bill to sign before the august recess?
Why doesn’t he tell congress what he wants.
Okay, kids. Let me copy the last sentence of the writing at the top:
Stay together, folks; the enemy is out there, not among us.
So……sorry if people get riled when others dare to say something that is not. exactly. like. they. think. is. true.
I’m hungry and the shrimp and rice are ready. Ta!
Actually no, no organization marches in lockstep, even the military and the military works the hardest at getting folks to march in lockstep. For the military in battle, it is often a matter of survival.
And the larger the organization, the harder it is to make folks march in lockstep without the incentives being set properly. The incentives are fear, greed, and pride. And different ones work on different people in an organization.
It turns out that folks who have the formal authority to run large corporations know how to motivate their direct reports to motivate their direct reports; beyond that you depend on selecting those direct reports carefully. Which is why large organizations tend to screw up.
his close Aide,Rahm i believe slammed the progressives who want a PO as “left of left”
I suspect there exists a subset of Libertarians who would never vote Republican, except for Ron Paul, just as many who are sincere in their opposition to war and empire would never vote Democratic.
out there in the tall grass are many millions who don’t vote, but might be energized by a real 3rd party movement – they and the disaffected Democrats and Libertarian trending Republicans could be a formidable coalition . . .
Yep, I get a little queasy over these too.
I am directly calling you out. I am asking you the following:
Did you support Bush and FISA?
Did you support illegal detentions vis-a-vis Bagram & Gitmo?
Did you support not releasing visitor logs to the Whitehouse during the BUsh years?
If you answered no to any of the above, I would like you to answer if you’re ok with Obama doing the same today, or if you oppose Obama doing that today, as he is.
You’ll misunderstood. Again, there are 4 proposals out of committee, and we have yet to see the proposal out of the finance committee. I don’t believe he should put all his cards on the table until he gets all the proposals out of committee.
I’d say there’s LOTS to worry about SEIU, and how they do business. And who they cut DEALS with, that sell out their members.
Not To Be Trusted! SEIU!
Unity is one thing, Scarecrow, SEIU is a ‘bluedog’ in our midst, looking for its OWN gains, not all of ours.
If they would be energized by a third party movement and if there are so many in tallgrass country, why have not any local or state third parties arisen that actually have put substantial numbers of people in office. Parties, even the wingnut conservative Republican one, get built from the grassroots up. Once built, they take a trajectory that is not predictable. Who knew that the Republican Party of Jacob Javits and Nelson Rockefeller would so soon become the Republican Party of Newt Gingrich, Tom Delay, John Boehner, and Sarah Palin?
The only place where third parties seem to be a permanent part of the political landscape is New York, but these parties often wind up endorsing Democrats or Republicans for state and national office.
I’m not sure I misunderstood, though I do think we disagree. I also am not sure I agree with the premise of this post, which seems to be that if we disagree with one another then we should be silent about that at this time. Dissent is, after all, patriotic, and it’s only through discussion that differences of opinion stand any hope of being settled.
Yep. It only matters that real reform happens quickly for both compassionate and political reasons; for Democrats they really are aligned even if the playahs in Congress to realize it.
Compassionate: it’s a matter or life and death and keeping marriages together and avoiding foreclosure and bankruptcy
Political: real reform will affect even skeptical birthers in a positive way; if real reform and especially if single payer were to pass, I would hate to be a party of No candidate running for reelection after those benefits start appearing in people’s lives. Even in a +22 R Congressional District, a Democratic challenger could make a good argument. And Blue Dogs could change the whole terms of debate in their districts.
unite4change – I never used bad language, or challenged your motive. I only used legitimate and honest debate type questions. And you know what?
Your positions are indefensible; at least, you have not defended them. And I think that speaks volumes.
No to all; however, I realize things are not always what they seem. I don’t believe any American is receiving all the information being provided to president. Believe it or not, everything is not always black and white, there are gray areas. Unfortunately, we are not privy to the information he bases his decisions on.
You’re losing me, I thought we were having a discussion.
Are you privy to that info?
You don’t have to defend the truth.
We should beware doing this- most often, historically, once a group of allies win a victory, the various coalitions within that group start to bicker and squabble; with the main threat gone, they assume that it’s “okay” to start fighting again. We must vigorously oppose this! We have not won yet.
doth protest eh
Absolutely not, and that’s why I don’t presume to know.
Well, you’re losing me too. I responded to your “keeping it inside the family” comment, and you replied as though I was specifically addressing the text of the bills. Then I commented on the post (not your comment) and you replied as though I was responding to your comment.
right now looks like we are in the belly of the whale imo
I don’t buy the argument that he can’t reveal things he uses to make decisions – ie trust me. W pulled that line and it was a big lie. He made shite up. Ridge just reveal that the color terror warnings were essentially political tools to scare people – not protect them.
No one could have predicted…
My bad! See how people can innocently misunderstand each other?
You have a fact free position, which means that you are not tethered to any position except that which suits you for the purposes of supporting your own beliefs.
Given that, there is no further reason to comment or debate, as there is no debate here, only a set of beliefs on your part, which tolerate no dissent from your belief system.
The proof of which is in this: you never offered a challenge in the form of a question, only in the form of an assertion.
I don’t know of anyone who believed the color terror warnings.
Somewhere near the point: SEIU isn’t the enemy, but Stern sure seems to be. His comments betray his total lack of principle, something the California Nurses people long ago discovered.
Sorry, Scarecrow, but Marcy nails it. Hard.
Shame the comments don’t deal with it. Seems to me we can’t stand with Jane, the progressives for whom triggers are anathema, and Stern. He knows full well what he said, and it doesn’t appear to be complicated. In my world, it’s called giving the farm away.
Jesus B. Ochoa
El Paso, Texas
Yes, happens here on a daily basis. At least.
You seem to believe you are saying something profound but it is what it is. Since when did a difference of opinion transform into not tolerating dissent? Please don’t project the way you feel on me.
One last time; if you supported Bush on FISA and illegal detentions, you know, habeus corpus issues, then you are consistent with supporting Obama today, as those positions are the same.
If you did not support Bush on illegal wiretaps or detentions, than you disagree with Obama today.
Those are facts, not opinions, and not projections. How this escapes you mystifies me.
Damn that was well described, and I’ve encountered all of that in SMALL companies in my worklife.
Thanks . . . I’m still smiling at instances of all that I’ve been in or seen go down . . . ;-)
Rahm is not the president.
unite4change, sorry to butt in, but is there any reason why you’re not answering KellyCDenver’s questions? They seem quite clear and reasonable to me.
Despite my better nature, I’m wading in on this a bit.
I find myself liking what I THINK is your optimism for Obama, optimism for me that goes up and down like a yo yo depending on who or what you read, see, or hear.
It’s TOUGH being trusting of Obama at this point.
It’s HELL thinking back on 40 years or more of losing JFK, MLK, RFK, and Nixon, Reagan, and both Bush’s.
Pure hell.
I guess I don’t care if you ARE a real Obama supporter, or a troll.
But your comments are a bit refreshing. So I’ll say thanks for that.
And, I’ll say, yer smooth . . . ;-) Who EVER you are . . . lol
Again, you nor I have seen the documents he sees and I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
Unlike you, I don’t profess to know what I don’t know about FISA or anything else. However, it’s my understanding he’s working to close GITMO.
OK, closing this window now. Sweet dreams, all.
What about using his position to LEVERAGE those committee’s and pressure them to bend to his/our will?
Are you in favor of that? Cuz, sadly, it’s lacking . . . publicly, that is. Can you offer evidence he’s GOT leverage on those committee’s that we’re not seeing?
Nice. I only replied to Scarecrow about SEIU of itself.
But I guess I’d say, unity at this stage of chaos sounds too much like fucking ‘bipartisanship’ to me.
We argue, we bitch, we complain, we offer ideas and facts and hopes to counter what we don’t agree with.
It’s democracy.
The BIG fight is the ownership the corporate feudalists have on us all.
But that’s not THIS Healthcare Reform fight, in of itself.
THIS fight, is the groundwork for establishing, either we’re FUCKED, or we have hope.
Once hope option is eliminated, and WE’RE FUCKED is fully established in the body politic, that 76% who FAVOR healthcare reform, once it’s established WE’RE FUCKED if we are, then I expect to see a LOT of fuckin unity.
And the blowback from the masses is gonna swell like a tsunami as we slide deeper into depression and no jobs and no incomes. Hugh suggested depression in ‘11.
I’d argue it’s here, and will REALLY take stride in ‘10.
But hey Hugh, what’s a year, and why quibble amongst friends, huh . . . *G*
And there you have it.
What you state is a belief system about Obama, which has nothing to do with the facts.
I happen to know tons about FISA, “unlike you.” Your condescension is noted, but I’ll ignore it beyond this point, as I’ll remain an honest intellectual and debater.
I believe all leaders should be challenged, all the time. Particularly when certain civil liberties have been transgressed. You have the freedom to “believe” all you like, and please do so. But to challenge others for their “beliefs” in the world of politics and liberties is the same as to challenge their religious beliefs in my opinion.
Obama is not a religion. He’s a servant, as any president is. And I’ll challenge that servant to the highest aspiations of the office and will not cut any slack where that servant does not obey the Constitution.
Particularly Obama, being a Constitutional scholar. He knows the value of the 4th Amendment but chose to chuck it for political expedience last Summer, yet I voted for him because the alternative of McCain was far too much to swallow.
Keep on with your belief. But you’re going to suck your reality, and it’s going to suck hard.
I”m in Sacto, CA. In the past I’ve been in regular contact with CNA AND SEIU here.
That was 20 years ago, but I’ve kept up on their issues in the media, newsletters, etc.
SEIU is off the hook. Bad. And so is Stern and their leadership.
I like your comment. Marcy was all OVER it.
Scarecrow has a GREAT point, about unity . . . however . . . . . it does NOT, unity, jive with the likes of SEIU and Stern. So I disagree there about that.
It’s a complex game we have to play. Unity, support, etc.
But skepticism and ability to HARSH on the lack of what we want.
Holding feets to fires, is good. Until we find we GOT what we want, we can’t trust ANYONE!
And if it turns out we DON’T get what we want, I pity the fools we elected that let us down and sold us out.
I really do.
Till then, we don’t even know what the final legislation will be.
But we should FIGHT for what we want. And fight harder, if we don’t get it.
I thought he did . . ??
In #111.
Pretty clear to me, he answered Kelly.
And in a manner we should all approve of.
Marcy right, Scarecrow wrong, move along …. nothing to see here
As much i trust howard dean ( as muchs as is possible to trust anyone who isnt my mother or brother i supppose) i think he may be fighting the administration and the coporate dems attemp to “walk us down” from this. he wantsexpectations high because he isnt going to stop fighting. I dont mean to attribute sneaky motives to him. we have EVERY RIGHT to expect the president and the super majority of dems we elected to honor thier agreements. He hasnt been wrong about anything yet ( how about that color coded fear system)
what would “dissafected” democrats and ron paul liber/tublicans have enough of between them to form a “3rd” party movemnt? in the “tall grass” or “in the backseat” or “under the boardwalk” or anywhere else? some on the right must think this presents a real opportunity for them. Unless they give up being evil and, or being willfully ignorant and mean, theres not much to talk about.
Be careful about laying into proven allies. Remember how the very existance of unions is under constant threat. I didnt think sterns language was appeasment. and scarecrow makes some good points about how terrified much of middle class people may become, if this is botched. that would be bad. also you’ll notice, wherever someone is dissing unions LIKE A RASH they appear. out of nowhere it seems. those calling themselves “partiot1776″ and “freeordie”.. you know who they are. one of them posted, what must have been half of her cruddy newsletter on Marcy’s Blog..WTH is “Boston1776″ doing on marcys blog right near the top?? she claimed to speak for aggreived california nursees, victimized by the evil andy stern…part of the same thing is poste on this very page. copied and pasted. beware of those liars.
SEIU has behaved like a management union at least since the New Haven nurses’ strike. They organize to get bigger, not to provide effective representation. You don’t hear members bitching like this at the Mineworkers or the Steel Workers or the UAW or the Teamsters. Stern is telegenic, sounds good – he’s Obama’s union guy. He is also selling out his membership on health care in order to stay Obama’s union guy. Marcy had it dead right. He’s Blue Dog bullshit and I think SEIU does a lousy job for its membership.
check this out. wonder if the MSM will cover these folks. Only if they start screaming.
Join the Mad as Hell Doctors caravan…go here them speak…spread the word
http://pdamerica.org/articles/…..iances.php
http://www.healthcare-now.org/…..gle-payer/
This kowtowing by Obama is absolutely sickening. It reinforces every stereotype of the clueless, masochistic, please-like-me, no-core-values Democrat. Disgusting.
Right Larue. It’s plutocracy vs. Democracy. We’re way down the road to plutocracy, and Obama apparently doesn’t see that this is the issue that affects everything else. This is why he should have taken the big banks into receivership. It’s why he should have gone for Medicare for All. It’s why he needed to follow through on transparency and accountability. It’s why he should be much more aggressive on Cap and Trade. And it’s why he should be out there trying to get the filibuster. And that’s just for starters.
I have been watching him and what I’ve been learning is that his popularity is dropping like a stone, he’s abandoned transparency, he delivered far too small a stimulus, and he’s screwing up the management of the health care debate with terrible messaging that the Republicans are cutting to ribbons. I’ve also learned that he re-inflated the old banking system has no regulations yet and has no credit flowing to Main Street and had done nothing effective to stop foreclosures in the Housing market. In addition, he’s getting in deeper in Afghanistan and Paksitan and not yet withdrawing from Iraq and is spending a fortune in all those places to no good effect. He’s better than Bush, and better than McCain likely would have been. But, generally his Presidency stinks.
What does being half-white have to do with anything?
Hi Tarheel, This is all true. But what does it imply for us that we shouldn’t attempt to turn him toward our interests when he seems to be sacrificing them? That we should shut up and not express our views?
What if everything indicates that you are losing the battle?
Well considering all of the bad results we’ve had on a host of other issues listed in a previous comment of mine, why should we have any faith now. When Obama was inaugurated in January we had faith. Now we have results and we don’t like them. We see the pattern in health care reform following the familiar pattern we have seen in other areas. So, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to expect another bad result and to do what we can to stop it.
Exactly.
I have heard it. Unfortunately, we’re not talking about his family. We’re talking about the American people and he was elected to provide leadership and get results. What’s in his head doesn’t much count. How he behaves does. And so far he’s been a lousy leader who has gotten few good results.
No one said he had to solve every problem in seven months. But he has a record of failure on the big issues, not success. And I include the stimulus package. There’s a double standard with respect to Obama and that is that we’re not crucifying him for employment levels this high, but instead are saying, thank God he stopped the slide so our stocks could rise from 6k to 9k.
You bet. But I don’t buy the expression anyway. The idea that we should have extreme secrecy in Government is a relic of Platonic authoritarianism. It;s opposed to Open Society and to Democracy. We need to cut secrecy down to a minimum, not excuse it, or justify it, or allow it to be expanded or tolerated. Secrecy is a progressive enemy. We need to drive a stake through its heart so it will never rise again.
He shouldn’t. But why also should he refuse to introduce a bill that he is for. That’s not putting one’s cards on the table, but it is leadership. You make your opening bid, you mobilize the public you twist arms in the Congress, you mobilize some more, you twist arms some more and then you compromise if you have to. You don’t pre-compromise by taking your most important card off the table and then spend all your time talking about general principles so that your supporters have nothing to rally ’round. That’s not leadership it’s PoMo community facilitation to get consensus. This isn’t about consensus. It’s about results. We can have consensus and bipartisanship in heaven along with the rest of the “pie in the sky.”
Who said anything about all the cards? What he should have done is to introduce a bill of his own and it should have been Medicare for All.
I do believe that many things are gray. For example, Medicare for All is gray, because Medicare hasn’t been an unqualified success and has serious problems. But the preference for Medicare for All over the PO is not a gray thing. The PO is an experimental untried solution to health insurance reform. programs like Medicare for All have been successful all over the world. So, Obama’s bald statement that we need something uniquely American, and his opposition to medicare for All, and his taking it off the table, all seem off and certainly not preferable to straightforward advocacy of Medicare for All. Not much gray there I’m afraid. On his refusal to make torturers accountable, I don’t see much gray there either. You cant’ have democracy when the Executive Branch of Government breaks the law over a sustained period. Undoubtedly prosecutions and trials will have negative as well as positive consequences. But either we will have democracy or we won’t. And we just won’t have it if Presidents and Vice Presidents are above the law. And there’s nothing gray about that. The fact lfe is gray and not black or white doesn’t obviate the need for moral judgments and for justice. It makes that need even greater so that the gray doesn’t overwhelm us.
You are; but you’re also advocating that we don’t have discussions with Obama but just have faith instead.
Don’t be silly. Of course one has to defend the truth. It has to be defended against people like George Bush, Dick Cheney, Frank Luntz, Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, and all the lying liars who spend their time making up and telling us lies. Als, every Republican and many Democratic spinners, those in the health insurance industry and everyone who believes that facts don’t matter.
I don’t presume to know what anyone thinks either, but I can certainly conjecture based on what they do and what they say. And if they know something different from those indications then they can tell us when it pleases them.