The Pentagon expects to receive General McChrystal’s troop request by the end of the week (remember, you heard it here first). If we accept Defense Department spokesman Geoff Morrell’s remarks during today’s press briefing, Defense Secretary Gates will pocket the document until the Obama Administration completes its strategic review. But, Morrell is clearly working to prevent the document from becoming a "moment of truth" for the secretary and the president, and I would be very surprised if a strategy assessment took place without a cost/benefit analysis. After all, a discussion on strategy not constrained by resource considerations would produce strategies as useful as a retirement plan that included "win the lottery" as a necessary step.
Looking for evaluative tools for the upcoming troop request, I flipped through my copy of The 33 Strategies of War by Robert Greene and came across this passage:
…Rommel once made a distinction between a gamble and a risk. Both cases involve an action with only a chance of success, a chance that is heightened by acting with boldness. The difference is that with a risk, if you lose, you can recover: your reputation will suffer no long-term damage, your resources will not be depleted, and you can return to your original position with acceptable losses. With a gamble, on the other hand, defeat can lead to a slew of problems that are likely to spiral out of control. …[I]f you encounter difficulties in a gamble, it becomes harder to pull out–you realize that the stakes are too high; you cannot afford to lose. So you try harder to rescue the situation, often making it worse and sinking deeper in to the hole that you cannot get out of. People are drawn into gambles by their emotions…Taking risks is essential; gambling is foolhardy.
…
The worst way to end…a war…is slowly and painfully…Before entering any action, you must calculate in precise terms your exit strategy…If the answers…seem to vague and full of speculation, if success seems all too alluring and failure somewhat dangerous, you are more than likely taking a gamble. Your emotions are leading you into a situation that could end up a quagmire.
Before that happens, catch yourself. And if you do find you have made this mistake, you have only two rational solutions: either end the conflict as quickly as you can, with a strong, violent blow aimed to win, accepting the costs and knowing they are better than a slow and painful death, or cut your losses and quit without delay. Never let pride or concern for your reputation pull you farther into the morass; both will suffer far greater blows by your persistence. Short-term defeat is better than long-term disaster.
Greene writes these words interpreting the Soviet experience in Afghanistan. They apply equally well to the situation in which the United States finds itself in the same country.
Let’s review how we got here. (Finger-pointing, unless you were one of the brave few who were against a military response to 9/11, is useless. We got here together.) President Bush (backed by almost all of us) acted on our emotions following the attacks without planning all the way to the end. Then, he launched the Iraq war without adequately thinking through the consequences for the endeavor in Afghanistan. While President Obama correctly assailed him for the Iraq blunder (such a small, inadequate word for that crime), he and the Democrats managed a neat trick of being anti-Iraq-war hawks by promising a chest-thumping charge into Afghanistan to "finish the job." Obama and his allies also failed to plan all the way to the end, to account for things like lost time, sputtering public enthusiasm for another presidential term lost in fever dreams of war and the awful human cost of the tough-guy promises to hit terrorists in Pakistan with drone strikes.
But, damning the torpedoes, we went full speed ahead, and in the period during which President Obama escalated drone strikes over Pakistan, ordered and escalation and then sent the new troops on a push into Helmand, the insurgent influence in Afghanistan went from this:

to this:

The number of insurgent attacks has also followed a steady upward trend since Jan 2006.
There’s little doubt that we’re in the morass against which Greene warns in the quote above. It should be useful, then, to examine Greene’s "two rational solutions" to the problem: the violent, crushing blow that ends the conflict quickly, or the rapid exit to prevent a worse catastrophe.
The prospects for success of a quick, violent blow are dim. The hardened core of the Taliban is the Quetta Shura Taliban. It’s called the Quetta Shura Taliban because it’s based in Quetta, capital of Balochistan in Pakistan. That’s where we suspect Mullah Omar and possibly Osama bin Laden hide from U.S. forces. It’s also a major city of 750,000+ people, almost all of them non-combatants. Thus, our ability to strike the "violent blow" that could end the al-Qaida/Taliban threat (assuming we’re not willing to drop 600,000+ troops into Afghanistan tomorrow to suddenly begin a textbook counterinsurgency) would depend on our willingness to repeat the carnage of Fallujah 2004 in a city roughly twice its size. This move would ignite Pakistan, to put it mildly, and it would put their nuclear arsenal on the game board in the scramble.
In other words, no sudden, violent blow, absent pristine intelligence revealing the precise, time-stamped location of Mullah Omar and Osama bin Laden, can end this conflict quickly without entailing costs we cannot bear.
That leaves us with option 2: cut your losses and quit without delay. So why do we remain?
First, the strategic complications of the situation boggle the mind. However, the strategic implications of the region have been on our radar for years, but cooler heads without the burden of the 9/11 trauma kept the U.S. out of a heavy military operation in Afghanistan even at the height of the Afghan civil war, and I can imagine that a desire to avoid precisely this predicament played a role in those decisions. But while I do not doubt that the strategic monstrosity of Iran/Afghanistan/Pakistan/Kashmir/India deeply concerns the president, I can also imagine that what really keeps him and his advisers up at night are fears of a possible crisis that would fall most heavily on the civilian population of Afghanistan following a U.S. withdrawal. The human, economic and political costs of our military operation are so high that, absent this humanitarian concern, I doubt we’d still be discussing whether to add or subtract troops. We’d be on our way home.
Regular readers of my blog know that I am a Christian whose understanding of Jesus’ teachings prevent me from supporting the use of violence in any circumstances. The far more (nominally) prevalent formulation among fellow Christians, obviously, is my faith’s adaptation of just war criteria. One of the main architects of Christian just war theory, Ambrose, Bishop of Milan and tutor to Augustine, articulated the viewpoint that helped drive just war criteria into Christian thought, and it’s exactly this sentiment that keeps well-meaning people of all faiths and of no faith tethered to the moral "necessity" of a U.S. military presence in Afghanistan:
He who does not keep harm off a friend, if he can, is as much in fault as he who causes it.
This is the sentiment that bridges the gap between the Sermon on the Mount and the Christian acceptance of war. And, as much as I disagree with it (note the deftness with which it queues noble sympathy for a friend while avoiding the truly revolutionary call of Jesus to love one’s enemies and to not violently resist an evil person), I understand it. However, the middle clause of the sentence is one of the most important pieces of guidance for the just war adherent: "if he can." Courage is not the only issue, nor is sentiment: likelihood of success is crucial. That’s why the Catechism of the Catholic Church includes in its explanation of just war this explicit restriction on military actions with poor prospects for success:
- the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
- all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
- there must be serious prospects of success;
- the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition."
[CCC 2309].
Desire to keep harm off a friend is insufficient to excuse your use of violence to save him. To be morally permissible, in this view, your violence must have a serious prospect of succeeding. Otherwise one simply adds to the level of violence and suffering already present.
The U.S. lacks a credible, legitimate partner in our attempt to use counterinsurgency strategy as a means of counterterrorism, and in COIN operations you live and die by the legitimacy of the host nation government. The COIN manual goes so far as to call host nation government legitimacy the "north star." Steadily rising attacks and maps of spreading insurgency are all symptoms of our lack of this fundamental prerequisite for the success of our chosen strategy. In addition, every single troop increase has been followed in the next year by an increased civilian casualty rate and a persistently increasing level of insurgent violence. Insurgents now have a significant presence in more than 90 percent of the country. Finally, evidence shows that even our humanitarian aid funneled through the military fuels violence in Afghanistan. We lack "serious" prospects for success; it is stretching to even say we have "credible" prospects for success. As such, our use of violence in pursuit of even humanitarian objectives only adds to the butcher’s bill in Afghanistan, and we can no longer be excused by our good intentions.
And don’t think for a second that "fewer troops, more drones" is an answer in Afghanistan. Drones have an indiscriminate track record already in Pakistan, and their expansion in Afghanistan would violate any formulation of just war ethics, causing a massive increase in death and suffering caused by U.S. forces. If one accepts the proposition that our purpose in Afghanistan is primarily to reduce the threat of terrorism against the United States, one should carefully consider the following from P.W. Singer’s excellent book on military robotics, Wired for War:
[Mubashar Jawed "M.J." Akbar concludes] that another unintentional effect must be watched out for. The greater use of unmanned systems, the more likely it will motivate terrorist strikes at America’s homeland. "It will be seen as a sign of American unwillingness to face death. Therefore, new ways to hit America will have to be devised…"(p. 312-313)
Singer also quotes Nir Rosen, who expects:
that the continuing trend will "encourage terrorism," maybe especially among those not fighting that way now. As he explains…not every fighter is an al-Qaeda terrorist intent on attacking the United States. "the insurgents are defending their area and focusing on troops they see as occupiers. But if they can’t kill soldiers on the battlefield, they will have to do it somewhere else" He predicts that the more we take American soldiers off the battlefields [through robotics], the more it will "drive them to hit back home." (p. 313)
None of the credible violent options in Afghanistan offer real chances for rolling back the insurgent reaction to our presence and to the corruption of the central government, nor do these options hold the potential for reducing terrorism against the United States. Because we lack a serious prospect for success via military force, we cannot justify its continued use. We should therefore make the only justifiable strategic and moral decision by grounding the drones and bringing our troops home, seeking instead humanitarian, political and diplomatic means to alleviate the inevitable suffering caused in part by our bad gamble in Afghanistan.
Note: Derrick Crowe is the Afghanistan blog fellow for Brave New Foundation / The Seminal. You can learn more about the dangers posed to U.S. national security by the war in Afghanistan by watching Rethink Afghanistan (Part Six): Security, or by visiting http://rethinkafghanistan.com/blog.
UPDATED UPDATE:
I believe the phrase you’re looking for is, "Screw that!"





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Per Sun Tzu, The Art of War, 400BC:
Bullshit.
Full quote:
The point I’m making is that yes, many of us cheered on this exercise in idiocy before we came to our senses. The military action in Afghanistan was very, very popular when we first went in. The rest of us should cheer the people who were right in the beginning, and be honest with ourselves about our failing to join them.
Ready for 5 more years and 500k forces? Me neither.
For some reason, there is not “recommend” link on your article, so I’ll simply express my thanks and admiration for your most excellent article. I appreciated both the strategic and the moral analyses.
For a guy who was trying to get somebody else to write this, you did pretty darn good.
Now try using fresh stats on the drone strikes in Pakistan or risk failing to consider that they’ve become more selective, successful and acceptable to the Pakistanis.
Derrick, your use of ‘many of us’ is a bit insulting to a prog/lib blog and most of those who read and comment here.
And, so as to NOT speak for others, I’ll say, it’s insulting to me.
A LARGE NUMBER of the american population did swallow the post 9/11 Kool Aid and support the Afghan Invasion (failed).
But I’d bet not so many of US in here, did.
I did not support it, because I had been reading for three years before 9/11 about The Taliban/Freedom Fighters telling Hallybutt to go Cheney itself, and awarding gas/oil pipeline contracts to Germany, France and Russia. They told HallyButt CEO Cheney to go away, because the CONTRACTS Hallybutt was proposing were WAY out of line and would screw over Afghanistan completely.
Cheney, Hallybutton and the oil cartels of USA were just WAITING for an excuse to get back into Afghan, and WAR was as good as any, post 9/11.
Course, that’s not all worked out as well as Hallybutt wanted, since, either. But that’s typical of USA Corporate ‘Nation Building’ efforts, isn’t it.
*G*
So, Derrick, you MIGHT want to rephrase the manner you describe those who were pro Afghan Invasion, cuz it’s getting some REALLY negative feedback, ya know.
Just trying to help . . . your analyses and info on Afghan are INCREDIBLY rich and valuable, and I thank you for your work. Keep it up, please.
Larue:
I understand you, and you should know I’m speaking as part of a group of people who went through the same evolution as I did. From my position, it would be very dishonest of me to talk like I was always against the Afghanistan war when describing how stupid it was to use military force. It would also be dishonest to talk about this like it was one or a few people’s doing, or even just many people’s doing. I’m part of a very large community who did this, and I’m just not part of the small and principled community (as you are) of cooler heads who knew better at the time. I’m part of the much more prevalent group of people who knows “we” screwed up and wishes we’d made different choices.
I’m far less concerned with the review than I am about talking truthfully about the group to which I belong. We shouldn’t be allowed to forget that this wasn’t just “Bush’s war.” By and large, Americans threw the military at Afghanistan. The sting of that should stay with us so we know better next time.
I appreciate your position. As long as we’re giving feedback…CAPS ARE YELLING. :)
Do you have more updated stats? The reason I keep using the May numbers is because I can’t find newer ones that break down the dead between civilians and suspected combatants.
The reason you can’t is that the Pakistanis are lately saying that almost all the dead are militants. This latest account is typical.
http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009925story_25-9-2009_pg7_6
After each announced strike, I follow the stories in the this paper and in Dawn.
Our targeting is getting better, but the claims from the Pakistanis indicate that it’s lately nearly flawless or they suppress accounts of civilian casualties when previously they trumpeted them
My links to the Daily Times are often faulty. Go to National News and see the drone strike story.
I love maps.
Well, as long as you MAKE it clear that is YOURSELF you are speaking of, and American’s who WERE fooled, that’s fine with me. But it WASN’T clear to me initially, so thanks for MAKING it clear.
And when I use caps, I INTEND to shout, a bit. I’m boisterous that way.
Keep up the good work, and thanks for sharing it with us all. *G*
And CONGRATS on making the FDL front page, hoss! Woot!
Body counts, theirs, ours and civvies, have been notoriously gamed thru the centuries.
*G*
Dawn is a Moonie publication.
Jus sayin’.
So every time there’s a post of Afghanistan I ask why the U.S. is losing. Soviets won until U.S. supplied stingers. U.S. has more troops (counting contractors) than the Soviets. Is the U.S. incompetent or what?
eCAHNomics, don’t be an UTTER fool. With something like 400,000 troops supplied from just the other side of the border, the Soviets controlled the cities. PERIOD. No one has ever conquered the Afghans and because of the terrain, no one ever will. The U.S. doesn’t have 400,000 troops and even if it did, our supply line is from where? In addition, just because the Russians defeating the Afghans, doesn’t mean “they were winning.” It would have taken way longer but they lost that war when they crossed the border.
David Gergen harumphing conventional wisdom on nuclear weapons proliferation, gets schooled by Reza Aslan on conflation station…. on AC 360.
Facial language…priceless.
Um, no. Troops on the other side of the border don’t count. And controlling the cities (such as they are) sounds like controlling the country to me. As opposed to Taliban in control of 80% of the country now, a stat I heard yesterday. And if the Soviets’ defeating the Afghans isn’t winning, what is? Your comment is incomprehensible and internally inconsistent.
So, let me see, Jesus driving the money changers out of the temple was an act of peace? You don’t get to cherry-pick.
I am not convinced the Soviets would have been able to retain control even in the absence of Stingers, they just sped things up.
A casual observer might have concluded shortly after invading, routing the Taliban, and installing a puppet leader that the U.S. was in control. The truth is, insurgencies require an incubation period.
False equivalency. If Jesus had purportedly slaughtered the money-changers it might be a serviceable analogy.
yes.
The Soviets were winning even after considerable interference from U.S., Pak, Saudis contributed $20 billion/year, until Singers shot down Soviet aircraft. I have seen no reports that Taliban (U.S. allies in taking down Najibullah after Soviets left) has support to that magnitude, maybe $40 billion/year in today’s dollars. Drug trade measured by NYT at $3 billion/year largely goes to Af govt, though Juan Cole emailed me that it was more like $30 bil/year. Still going mainly to Af govt. So why is the Taliban winning and why is the U.S. so incompetent?
Details, please.
Perhaps a contributing factor is that our wars are profit driven. Winning does not line the pockets of defense contractors or their government lapdogs like a protracted conflict.
I suspect that part of the difference is that the U.S. is not as brutal as the Soviets were. They literally anhiliated whole areas of Af to “pacify” them. But even taking into account that the U.S, hasn’t had the nerve to do that since VN, there is still a large gap in performance to accont for, given all the resources the insurgents had against the Soviets that the Taliban, presumably, don’t have against the U.S.
Or do they? Is there some state actor that is supporting the Taliban? To the tune of $40 bil/year?
As someone noted upthread, McChrystal, in his now-it’s-classified/now-it’s’not report, wants a half-million-plus troops for 10 Friedmans.
I want this little solution to be debated until the mid-terms, so the republicans can run on that “mission will be accomplished” prognosis.
Particularly, let’s see if Petraeus is on board with that kind of uber-surge. I think that will make fine plank in the GOP platform for the voters to talk about.
Nonsense. Turn the other cheek, drive them out of the temple. Pretty equivalent. Want to talk about the Passover or God’s blood requirement of David and Bathsheba?
Petreaus/Gates 2012. They’ll win the wars for the U.S.
Thanks for reminding me the Soviets never were winning shit in Afghan.
I don’t recall that they were ever winning.
And thanks for reminding me they had 400,000 troops!
And were supplied from next door!
And LOST!
They lost long before we gave stingers to the Freedom Fighters.
They were going broke staging a foreign intervention and battling an insurgency.
History proves you can’t WIN them wars, unless you wipe out an entire population.
Or relocate an entire population.
And Alexander couldn’t control the outlying areas, and no one else since has been able to, either.
You can’t wipe out or relocate a mountainous insurgency, much less one that’s got a thousand of years of experience beating off outsiders.
Thanks.
Nonsense indeed.
If all assessments of the situation are controlled by people who want Obama to fail, then he musn’t let them control the ‘conversation’ and final ‘decision’. He must simply pull out.
If we have knowledge of how well things are working in Pakistan, and there’s no reason to think we can’t get decent info on that, then that could be used. On Afghanistan it appears McChrystal doesn’t want the WH to have accurate information. Clearly the Taliban can’t beat us and it’s even doubtful they are “resurgent”. More likely they’ve been taking a beating in Pakistan and the tribal areas and they’ve simply retreated into Afghanistan. McC may want more troops, but he hasn’t shown he knows what to do with them. We attack, we get blown up in traps. We retreat he whines we’re not doing anything. That’s a no-win conversation and McC controls how well any strategy might work.
Also, changing military commanders isn’t likely to work and worse it can be played in the press as an indication Obama’s (!) strategy is failing (rather than military execution of it). No, it’s a no-win situation.
So, we either keep Afghanistan quiescent and just work on Pakistan or decide that’s done and we can leave. Of course, the press might try to hammer O for that too, but there’s no real argument on their side since they’ve been saying for some time we should have left because “there isn’t much left of Al Qaeda”. It’s only very recently they changed their tune to say we should stay. Hypocrites!
When we’ve got everybody and everything packed up we should probably leave unless there’s more to do in Pakistan on Al Qaeda. Sounds right anyway since that was our primary U.S. goal in the first place.
Good lord, Ecahn, the Soviets had the cities, a corrupt government, and STILL couldn’t win the war or hold the country, and it broke them finanically.
Stingers were a pittance to the inevitable downfall.
What part of that don’t you get?
Now, I’m NOT discounting our aid to The Freedom Fighters, but it only speeded up the end game.
Soviets were going broke LONG before Ronnie Raygun begat Freedom Fighters. And Soviets were going broke from all they invested into Afghan, and it was FAILING to provide a RETURN ON INVESTMENT!!!!
But hey, who am I to try and challenge your beliefs, I’m nobody.
You believe what you want to believe. I’ll stick to MY reality.
Always fun arguing with you. Yer stubborn. So am I. *G*
*G*
A point I could NOT refute!
*G*
Still, he’s got other valids . . . ;-)
Yes indeed the Soviets were going broke long before Af, yet they still won until the stingers came in.
I believe, besides the Soviets, that the Persians have also conquered Af.
Earlier you asked about state sponsors of the insurgents. How about every state with a large number of heroin users?
More simple answers? *G*
“The Soviets were winning even after considerable interference from U.S., Pak, Saudis contributed $20 billion/year, until Singers shot down Soviet aircraft. I have seen no reports that Taliban (U.S. allies in taking down Najibullah after Soviets left) has support to that magnitude, maybe $40 billion/year in today’s dollars.”
Money, is not relevant to some extent, to insurgencies. Or the ability for people with tunnels and pointed sticks to fight on forever, and break a country financially.
“Drug trade measured by NYT at $3 billion/year largely goes to Af govt, though Juan Cole emailed me that it was more like $30 bil/year. Still going mainly to Af govt.”
Um, so you’ll admit the money and corruption from the drug trade goes to Karzai? And what do you think is our reason for propping him up?
“So why is the Taliban winning and why is the U.S. so incompetent?”
The US is incompetent only in the manner of winning or losing a war against the insurgency.
That’s not WHY we are there. You’ve spun more crap that KKK Karl Rove.
We are there FOR the capture of the drug trade, and the routes. So we can trade drug money for weapons and keep the MinderBender, Inc. MIC alive and thriving to pay off our elected offals, to enact legislation to propogate it all.
And we are there for the capture of the oil/gas distribution pipelines that will some day be BUILT in Afghanistan. You know, the one’s The Taliban told Hallybutt to go Cheney itself in ‘98, which is WHY we invaded Afghan in the FIRST place.
C’mon Echan. Yer slippin. Yer spinnin something that’s disingenuous at best.
And yer killin me. In that New Yorkese Way . . *G*
Oh for god’s sake, WE are supporting them!
Still.
To protract it all.
Get with the program, gal.
{{{{{{TANBARK!!!!!}}}}}}}
*G*
WOOF!
The equivalency to a military coup on our nation?
Are you insane?
pssst. 400,000 of those folks are supposed to be supplied from the population of Afghanistan.
Do they own the dish soap also?
Invalid argument. The passage to which you refer does not say Jesus hit the people with the whip in the original language. This is attested to in a number of more updated translations of the Bible, as well as records of debate from the 4th century. See here, p. 42 and 43, especially footnote 37. But even if we accepted your reading, please explain how you’d *not* be the one cherry picking given the totality of his teaching and example.
That too. :P
I’d also note that you’ve neatly avoided engaging with the material at all by focusing on my tangential remark about my own orientation toward war, violence and Jesus, ignoring the fact that the argument made above specifically focuses on the more permissive formulation of just war theory. Nice red herring. Please give us something that would actually pin you into taking a position, or stop wasting our time.
Fix the update, please, Derrick to reflect that McChrystal isn’t calling for 500,000 NATO troops.
Pssst…Mac: Good luck with that. IF we could find 400,000 Afghanis willing to take the Sunni-style bribes, the instant we left, they would be tribal oriented again…if not before.
And here’s some more grist for the mill:’
http://www.washingtonpost.com/…..24_pf.html
And, McChrystal is also pimping for a limited “debate” on Afghanistan:
http://news.antiwar.com/2009/0…..-strategy/
I guess he’s being Vietnam-style pre-emptive, on americans wanting to get the hell out of shitmire #1.
I will update it with the video of Andrea Mitchell’s appearance on Morning Joe, which started the buzz about the troop numbers, just so there’s no ambiguity.
By the Mac, I note you have nothing to say about McChrystal’s talking about the 5 years. Is that off the table for you?
just wanted to let you know that you were talkin through yer hat about making the Rs defend sending 500,000 Merkin boys off to war.
Don’t much understand what you’re saying about the loyalty of the Afghan armed forces reverting to tribalism or how you would be able to predict that.
How did you know that I had nothing to say about the five years before you asked?
Are you really all that gifted at prediction?
Did you have something to say about it? If I missed it, point it out.
Are you seriously asking me how I can “predict” that most, if not all, of any support that we purchase there, will revert to their tribal loyalties if we aren’t there to alternately apply the carrot and the stick?
Tell me you’re not asking that, please.
Re: loyalty of the Afghan military: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2F80llZ5F4
You can look at this video in one of two ways: you can take the perspective of the U.S. soldiers. You can also take this as evidence of resistance and lack of enthusiasm on their part. Either way…
These videos are a dime a dozen.
reminds me, as ever, of the unholy conjunction between those who call themselves Progressives and their callous and scornful lover, the Democratic Party.
cut your losses and quit with your unfaithful paramour, your affections have been unrequited for more than 30 years!
but just as McChrystal says “If only I had more and better Afghan stooges as Imperial Stormtroopers, then I will surely achieve your goals, sire!” there is always the tired call to progressives to redouble their efforts and elect “more and better Dems!”
well, History teaches in both cases, it ain’t gonna work out that way.
BTW, Mac, here’s Andrea Mitchell:
“The numbers are really pretty horrifying. What they say, embedded in this report by McChrystal, is they would need 500,000 troops-boots on the ground-and five years to do the job. No one expects that the Afghan army could step up to that. Are we gonna put even half of that of U.S. troops and NATO forces? No way.”
Did you get confused and think that it was McChrystal saying “no way”?
I haven’t read the classified report, but I also haven’t read ANYTHING where McChrystal mentioned that 400,000 of the 500,000 would come from Afghanis. If you did, can you put up the link?
But, let’s cut to the chase here. Do YOU think that we can get 400,000 thousand Afghanis to help us go after the Taliban? Or, should I phrase the question another way: do you think we have enough money in the U.S. Treasury to purchase that? And without our military there, how permanent do you think it would be, if we did purchase it?
Just askin’…. :o)
Why would you want to run the clip without adding that it’s a mistake and that the report calls for 400,000 of the 500,000 to be locals?
Here’s the link. The reporter is someone I’ve always found trustworthy.
If you would like, you won’t have much trouble reading the report if you follow Spencer’s link.
http://washingtonindependent.c…..op-figures
For your other questions, I can’t say for sure whether 400,000 will join up. There are certainly more than enough men available and we certainly can afford to pay them.
You ideas about permanence aren’t easily answerable without some more information.
How long do you think that we would need them in service and how much would it matter once our main goals are met?
The problem, of course, is that Obama is dealing with the brass whom george bush elevated to help cover his and the GOP’s asses, while they got out of Dodge and hung the flaming turd-lei around Obama and the dem’s necks.
So far, it’s worked perfectly, and since there is no way that either of the miseries is going to have a happy ending for us, Obama is stuck with about as lousy a Hobson’s choice as there has ever been. He needs, badly, to STOP talking about a “necessary war”, and to start preparing the american people for the truth, which is that bushCo et al, bullshitted us into two unwinnable wars that are going to leave us worse off than we would have been if he hadn’t started them.
Since the Taliban had let Al Queada turn Afghanistan into a boot camp for terrism, and since that was where the creator of 9-11 was, it wasn’t hard to gin up support for going after the regime there, but nation-building wasn’t in the job description, and now Obama is stuck with the politically lethal task of extricating us from the Graveyard of Empires. It won’t be easy, and he’s going to have to keep reminding the voters that he didn’t create these Gordian Knots, but he has to cut them.
As this kicks in (and it better, or he’ll for sure be a one-term preznint) we’re going to enter a period of bullshit-mongering that will make what’s going on with the healthcare debate seem like the Delphic Oracle.
Hold on to your hats.
we americans did not learn from vietnam
we may learn from iraq and afghan
dont bet on it americans are very very arrogant
the super power status will not go away easily
we have a kick butt mentality
we are about to bleed very very slow
but oh we are better than the russians
afghan is a tribal nation not one prone to a democracy
we has better look at our democracy and see how it is doing and quit doing nation buildind
if the world powers had any guts they would put us up in front of the world court for the illegal invasion of iraq
no they want to sell us their stuff $$$$$$$$$$$
Spencer is a solid guy; the reason I posted the link is that I don’t think he’s seen the report and is speculating, whereas Mitchell (from what I understand) claims to have gotten that information from a source who’s seen the actual classified document. Once we get more information confirmed from the administration, I’ll be happy to update. Spencer has rebuilt what he believes is the math for that number, but he’s not getting them from the classified version of the report.
Further, Spencer’s not discussing a key part of the Mitchell quote: that no one considers the idea that we can rapidly ramp up recruitment (read: shorten training and lower recruiting standards) for Afghan forces and create a reliable force. See, for example, Ann Jones’ excellent piece here: http://tomdispatch.com/post/17…..ghanistan_
Mitchell accounts for that; Spencer doesn’t.
Mac@61; thanks for the link. Needless to say, I don’t share your optimism. I was here for Vietnam, and as you probably know, those feelgood projections about “Vietnamization” were nothing but bullshit. Then as now, the warbot brass were desperately trying to perpetuate their pet clusterfuck. The language and the logic are practically identical.
It may be that Spencer Ackerman is reliable, but for me, Joe Lieberman, who also pooh-poohed the 500,000 number, is anything but reliable. He’s got “property of AIPAC” tattooed on his ass, and everything that he says or does, is colored by that.
As for your posit that we can get the men, and the money to pay them, I would have to disagree. After nearly 8 years of blood, money, and bullshit, I don’t want to bet five years of occupation on that dicey proposition, and I don’t think american voters will either.
Of the Afghan freedom-fighters, as I said, I think that we would need them in service permanently, except, I haven’t seen the slightest indication that the permanence would last unless we were there to enforce it militarily and financially.
and right here, I would like very much for you to explain what our “main goals” are, which you seem to assume we can meet.
And after this, can we talk about Iraq? Because I’m wondering if you’re also optimistic about that.
Good point, Derrick. Ackerman almost seems to be quoting chapter and verse. Has he seen it?
Actually, the idea that we can come up with 400,000 Afghanis to go after the more devout Muslims there (and that’s what we’re talking about, since even our military says that Al Queada’s presence there is practically nil) is about as fruit-loopy as the idea that we could find a half-million of our, and NATO’s, troops to send there. Neither one makes any sense.
Happily, Obama seems to be having second thoughts about sending another 45,000 american troops, and just as in Iraq, the coalition of the hired is starting to unravel, as we speak. This battle was going to have to be joined sometime, and it looks like it’s already started. Why not?
I’ll stick with what I said. I will be glad for Petraeus and the GOP, or anyone else, to try to crank up the “we’re-about-to-start-to-commence-to-win the war on terrrr”, and after 8 years of george bush, to run on that idea.
If Obama and the dems can’t, or won’t, beat them senseless for doing it, then they don’t deserve a second term.
As far as I know, no–he’s using information from the declassified version. But even if he has the correct number of U.S. forces, the argument in the above post still applies. And, in addition to the material in the post above, consider Ann Jones’ piece, posted above in the comments. That Afghan force growth will not be a game-changer.
I would say that both Spencer and myself share your views on Lieberman.
But be that as it may, you keep moving the goalposts on me. You asked if we could raise and pay for 400,000 Afghans and raising that many is certainly possible> If we get them, paying for them is not even burdensome. In comparison to paying for our own troops or even contractors, they would be cheap.
Discussion of what you or the American voters might be willing to allow is a whole other kettle of fish and at 2am here, I’m going to skip on that.
My idea of our “main goals” is that we end the entrenchment of transnational terrorists in the area, dislodging them to the extent that they will no longer find Afghanistan and Pakistan to be a safe place to congregate, threaten to establish themselves as a governing body in place of the recognized regimes, or be able to use the area as a base from which to mount terrorist acts in any other part of the globe.
Derrick, could you fix your synopsis of the two maps, please? They indicate Taliban activity, not influence (at least that is the caption on the original), lest eCAHNomics misread it (@18) to mean the Taliban control 80% of the country? Directly after, your linked graph shows a steady upward trend in attacks starting in 2007, not in the “invasion”. Since other authors cite a Taliban offensive, starting 2006, it is deceptive to assume your graph descends along a simple regression line to 2001.
Otherwise it’s a good piece. I’m intrigued by this,
I am, and have said so before, in favor of a demilitarized mission in Afghanistan, but given the failure to establish competent police and a competent justice system, how does the preceding quoted paragraph happen with all troops out? If there is a credible way to do this, I’m fine with it, but I don’t see it happening before Pakistan is forced to dump it’s insurgent groups and end the sanctuaries of the Taliban and al Qaeda, and that doesn’t mean the present, thus far (although more could be done to speed it up).
Instead, I would propose that the 9/18/2001 AUMF should be rescinded (which would end Operation Enduring Freedom), and then the assessment be re-done with only the humanitarian mission as its objective. The military itself might then recommend a completely different thing and we could dump the notion of a counterinsurgency war to be won and clarified a non-retributive goal.
But I’d be willing to bet it would still require peacekeeping troops until the local police situation could be stabilized with well trained police.
Did he break limbs, use drones or end up with dead bodies?
He forcefully said get the **** out of here ,as he should.
Peaceably as he could.
“Almost all of us”… what kind of cowardly bullshit rhetoric is this?
If the author feels he has blood on his hands for having sheepishly obeyed the Codpiece In Chief’s orders to start killing some brownskins, boo fucking hoo. He shouldn’t try reducing his guilt by falsely accusing others of having been as gullible as he was.
Mac@69: I’m not moving them; we just don’t agree on what the goalposts are, and we certainly don’t agree on the goals, themselves.
Of the half-million new troops to oppose the Taliban, Tom Andrews says, accurately, I think:
“There are perhaps only two people in america who think that this level
of committment is sustainable by the U.S. and it’s allies, and they left office last January.”
The simple truth is that without the permanent presence of a substantial part our military there, and without the infusion of at least the billion plus dollars a week that’s going in now, achieving the goals you so optimistically speak of is nonsense. And if we could achieve them, the idea that we could pull out and have that “stability” continue is Alice-in-wonderland fantasy. And if you want to keep the troops there and keep paying the nut for the mythical 400,000 Afghanis, then please, file to run for office, preferably on the republican ticket, and I’ll send you $20.
After nearly 8 years, and giga-jillions, and lots of flying body parts, by practically all accounts, we are losing. Our puppet, Kharzai, is the lord of Kabul. If he ventures out of the capital without a praetorian guard of american-funded mercs-are-us, he stands a good chance of being converted into Alpo.
Afghanistan is a tribal entity, peopled by mostly devout Muslims…which is why the Taliban can move around in the country with relative impunity, while killing the officials that we/the “central government”, install.
Since you seem to feel that we can move the Taliban out of Pakistan anytime we want, you might want to read this:
http://wire.antiwar.com/2009/0…..e-with-us/
And I don’t know if you know it or not, but Pakistani support was crucial to the Taliban taking Afghanistan, in the first place. I don’t think that has changed a lot. They’ll take our money, roust some of the Taliban around a bit, and then smile and ask for more.
And here’s some more news, this morning:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33…..tral_asia/
With your “meet our goals” scenario, I’m sorry, but I have to say, you sound like a combination of Donald Rumsfelt and Condoleeza Rice.
Great talking with you. You asked for the goals, I gave them to you. From my list, you again move the posts and start saying that we can’t expect these goals to be sustained after we leave the area. Somewhat different discussion and somewhat less important to us once we uproot the foreigners and beat down the insurgency.
But a great prediction, anyway.
I’m pretty well aware of the Pajistani support for the Taliban and the use of Afghanistan as part of an effort the provide strategic depth.
Keep the Condi comparison and the $20, maybe use it to polish up your crystal balls.
“Moving the posts…”
Did you think I was going to let you put up the rightwing fantasy about meeting our goals, without pointing out that it’s the same old gibberish that we’ve been hearing for years?
and, happily enough, you didn’t stop there. :o)
“Once we uproot the foreigners and beat down the insurgency…”
Which is 100% classic bushCo koolaid, as in:
The Afghanis REALLY love us and all we have to do is keep feeding the bodies and the dollars in to get rid of the durned troublemaking (fill-in- the-blank-furriners…) and in our 52nd state, we’ll have Unocal-made blueberry pie and ice cream for corporate amurka…
I will keep the $20, but by your own words, the Condi comparison fits you like it was one of her Gucci shoes.
Beese, you can talk directly to me, I’m here and responsive. See #8 above. http://seminal.firedoglake.com…..ment-78176
Thanks and good catch re: the graph. You are correct, and I’ve corrected it above. I had intended to post it without editorializing but had some trouble getting it to appear in my post (anyone have that problem when mixing graphics and video? solutions suggested would be appreciated).
Re: the maps, you’re right about the caption on the map. Here’s ICOS’ discussion of their research put out with the maps themselves, which can be found here: http://www.icosgroup.net/modul….._after_911
As you note, it’s not “control,” it’s the indications of a permanent locus of insurgent operations. “Activity” is a fine word to use to describe it, but I’d also say “influence” is a fair word. Do you disagree?
Your proposed alternative solution would be much, much preferable to me than the status quo. But the critique of the “troops out” option cuts both ways–given the problems that come with the American forces and the way its become a catalyst for insurgency, how does a troops in option have a credible chance of success? I worry greatly about the well-being of troops who stay behind as massive numbers of their colleagues leave.
I don’t disagree with this at all:
The utility of humanitarian exercises has become completely subservient to counterinsurgency objectives in the views of the people at the top of the regional command. You’d have to decapitate the force and replace it with new leadership down several levels to excise that thinking. Maybe that’s also a good way to go, but that also entails its own risk.
The problem is that there are, obviously, no “wins” to be had here anymore.
I feel your comment needs a more full response that what I posted above. You’re taking issue with my characterization of “Almost all of us” without noting the very clear caveat:
In addition to the comment I referred you to above, I think you’re engaging in a little bit of revisionist history if you’re trying to assert that I’m trying to “reducing his guilt by falsely accusing others of having been as gullible as he was.” Polls at the time showed around 90 percent of Americans supported the use of military force in Afghanistan in response to the 9/11 attacks. There’s no false accusation in saying that “almost all of us” are complicit in this crime. It’s fact. If you’re not complicit with the other 90 percent of us, you’re one of the brave few…which is exactly what I called you.
Whoops, I meant “I don’t agree with this at all” where I said “disagree” earlier. Sorry, writing too quickly, not proofing. :(
Yes, I disagree. The activity is very targetted, as the al Qaeda warning yesterday to the Europeans clearly shows. Such it has been for at least going on 3 years now, well documented in Ahmed Rashid’s book, and others. But it fits your argument about losing the war let’s get out much better to say it the way you said. I was just pointing out that you’re propagandizing.
For all the time you spend on this, you just don’t see it, do you? OEF is a prison operation, and keeps the media line in the U.S. of fighting them there so we don’t fight them here. Cut it off at the roots, and let’s discuss the humanitarian mission. Having to go layers deep to root it out isn’t a problem, just ramp up a torture investigation, it will catch most of it, the prison system is the “collateral damage” of the Torture Team.
If you think that the rest can be done without troops and have a plan, I’ll buy in. I think it would need a lot of security from somewhere, but if you know how to do that, I’m all ears.
My great fear with the “leave first then discuss how to do the humanitarian stuff” option is that the second half won’t get done and all that happens is we drop the place cold like 20 years ago. It worked so very well, didn’t it? Ever try to raise interest in strictly (foreign) humanitarian work in the U.S? You throw an event and you’re lucky if 5 people show up. And you put up with a lot of people from all parts of the political spectrum glaring at you and asking, “What’s in it for me?” Been there, done that. “I’d like to help you but we’re having a recession and health care reform comes first.” Yup. People will die if we don’t discuss the humanity before we leave.
With 3.5 million external and probably a very large number of IDP refugees, a broken economy and a government we both agree isn’t working, and a drug trade that is totally distorting everything, and a Pakistani hegemonic insurgent generating machine, I don’t think that’s a humane thing to do, given the ability of the world to follow through on its commitments last time.