In today’s Senate Finance Committee debate a principal concern among Democrats considering the Public Option (PO) was whether the PO would pay providers who treat PO patients rates tied to Medicare schedules.
Senator Conrad, for example, claimed that since Medicare payments are so far below rates paid to providers by Medicare Advantage and other private plans, it would bankrupt hospitals in his state if they were forced to accept only Medicare payment levels. The PO, he concluded, would put health providers in his state out of business, a threat Sen. Grassley was more than happy to echo.
Sen. Bingaman seemed sympathetic to that argument. While he would support a PO, it would be Schumer’s version which does not tie PO payments to Medicare’s lower rates.
Sen. Rockefeller seemed unwilling to engage this issue. He conceded that his amendment would require the PO to use Medicare rates for the first two years "to get it established," but after that the PO would negotiate rates just like other insurers.
It’s true that Medicare generally pays providers less than private plans, and it’s likely true that some health care providers depend on that difference to make their practices more profitable. But the underlying assumption is that Medicare payment rates are unfair, below "costs," so that forcing more providers to rely on such lower rates would make it impossible for them to continue providing care.
Public option advocates in the Senate would do well to confront this assertion. If, as claimed, Medicare rates are insufficient to cover costs, then Medicare rates should be revised, and that should be the condition for pegging PO rates to Medicare. There’s no doubt providers argue they need more, but what’s missing from the debate is compelling evidence that the assumption is true.
In principle, Medicare’s administrators are charged with ensuring that rate schedules fairly cover provider costs. The rates need to be sufficient to sustain sufficient providers for everyone who needs Medicare services. That’s just standard "cost-of-service" rate making. And if they need to pay primary care doctors more and some specialists less, so be it. The administrators are not told to set payment rates at levels that require indirect subsidies from private systems to keep the providers solvent.
The Medicare Payment Advisory Commission (MedPAC) does not agree with the assumption that providers are systematically paid below costs. As Sen. Kerry argued today, needlessly higher payments asked by inefficient providers (large hospitals) and allowed by private insurers are the source of the difference, not "underpayment" by Medicare. Whether that’s true and why are empirical questions, but MedPAC disputes the assumption and the debate needs to focus on the evidence.
And we should not forget that the payments providers want to receive are not derived from anything remotely resembling a competitive market. Like any quasi-regulated entity, hospitals have no reason to be totally transparent about their real costs. No utility ever is.
To be sure, hospitals do compete for patients, and they advertise extensively about how terrific their treatment programs are. But that doesn’t create an efficient market with competitive pricing. There is no meaningful price competition; indeed prices are mostly unknown by patients who have insurance, and patients learn about prices only after the fact when they get the hospital and doctor bills not covered by their insurance.
It’s just as plausible to believe that as hospitals become more consolidated, they will use their local market power to force higher payment schedules on private insurers and uninsured patients. That will have less effect on Medicare which has its own market power. This isn’t competitive pricing; it’s market power against market power.
So the notion that Medicare is paying something less then the competitive market rates needed to sustain sufficient care over time is not a given. There is no competitive market price, and provider prices are set in non-transparent ways by entities with market power.
In such a system, Medicare has no choice but to set payment schedules administratively, based on cost-of-service studies to determine what payments providers should receive to enable them to provide and sustain required Medicare services. As the guest post at Maggie Mahar’s blog (see links below) points out, this costing system is enormously complicated, and there are arguments for and against specific instances of over- or under-payments. But the public debate so far hasn’t produced any evidence that Medicare is systematically underpaying providers.
The question is fundamental to the viability of a national public option. If Medicare’s decades of studying cost-of-service can’t be the basis for setting PO provider rates, then what should the PO use, and how hard would it be to start over? It’s hard to imagine how such a disadvantaged new entrant in the market could even get started.
If there are credible studies of actual cost-of-service findings that settle this one way or another, that would be interesting. Until then, arguments to separate the PO from Medicare cost-of-service rate-making seem badly misguided and will reward only those providers with market power and doom the public option.
More on the debate:
CAF, MedPAC debunks hospital cost-shifting claims
Volsky, Think Progress-WonkRoom, How are Medicare rates set?
NYT, earlier history of underpayments fixed, here and here
Ezra Klein, Does Medicare Pay Below "Cost?"
Must read: Maggie Mahar, guest post, Does Medicare Underpay Hospitals?





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All of this assumes that there is a creditable cost-of-service. Anyone who has seen a medical bill, especially an itemized one knows that it is largely a work of fiction. Take any scheduled procedure. There are office visits, tests, physician time, nurse time, medications used, equipment used, cost of the room, utilities and on and on. Who says that a test should cost a certain amount? Or that a procedure should? It is all based on how much the hospital thinks its profit should be, what a doctor thinks his or her salary should be, what a nurse should make, and of course what an insurer is willing to pay.
But there are other issues as well. I knew a physician who would order the the kitchen sink on patients admitted to the hospital. He rationalized it that it was his only chance to do a full workup on a patient. But if a patient is admitted with pneumonia there is absolutely no reason to do a PSA or a cholesterol check on them. I doubt an insurance company would pay for the extra tests. Being done on an inpatient basis, the test themselves cost several times what they would cost if they were done on an outpatient basis. I always wondered who ended up paying for all this unnecessary padding. But the point is that this kind of activity can push up prices too.
I am so outraged by todays news. No more compromise – Single Payer HR 676 Medicare for all Americans with 50 votes. To hell with the GOP.
I remember people talking about big differences in reimbursement rates from one state to the next, to the disadvantage of North Dakota. I can’t remember the details, though.
Ughh, They’re back
Baucus & the Finedance Committee dog & pony show.
Gonna pound the gavel any second .
Grassley looks like he’s mining Baucus’s cologne,
Amen!!
That would be great, but there aren’t 50 votes for 676 in the Senate. There probably aren’t 50 votes in the House.
Yes! I absolutely think that the PO should use Medicare payment rates! This is precisely the type of competitive cost management that we need here (and that the president has called for). The Strong PO has to emerge as an effective price-setter for the industry if it is to have the effect on underlying healthcare costs that the president has called for, and relentless downward pressure on the margins of healthcare providers and pharma company is the only way to do this.
Excellent post Scarecrow.
Harkin doubles down:
did he get into the secret sauce?
2 bedroom 2 baths in Bismarck, ND – $ 800.00
i wish i could figure out how to respond to this…
let me start by saying that i own a privately-held manufacturing concern. in one of the good years, i employed 80 individuals. in this year, i am down to 35.
still, i provide ppo major medical coverage, and a special long-term health care stipend if an employee would be incapacitated by a stroke, dementia, etc. and worker’s comp coverage as well.
as a cost of doing business[other than worker’s comp, i have selected the additonal coverage. i haven’t run all the numbers, but for the major medical coverage it costs me $5400 per employee.
so, as a business proposition, i would prefer to see the usa devise a system similar to the french or japanese[even german] system. and take health care off of my books. what is it about the us chamber of commerce, nfib, and many of the reptillians[businesspersons all] who want to keep these costs on their books?
lastly, though i am in my 60’s, i have had good health[inshallah]. but several years ago, i tore the medial collateral ligament in my right knee. which was confirmed by an mri. the mri facility was owned by my orthopod group[covertly, i think]. my insuror, humana, paid the mri facility $650 for what was otherwise described as a $2500 procedure.
think on that, had i wondered in off the street, uninsured, i would have been charged $2500. humana negotiated the price to $650. which tells me that the real cost of producing an mri scan of a knee is probably about $325[or less].
do i need say any more? i think you can get my point about how the costs of medical care in the usa can be reduced. and the medicos can still make wonderful profits.
Now Kyl is quoting the Moonie owned Washington Times.
What a hack
The Dead Zone. That’s what I call that whole depopulated prairie region…
Nope, I still believe that by Thanksgiving, Obama will sign such a Bill. The momentum is with us, we have to keep pushing this all the way to the end because the Overlords are getting desperate and will do everything to stop this.
*Hic* …. *g*
“But the underlying assumption is that Medicare payment rates are unfair, below “costs,” so that forcing more providers to rely on such lower rates would make it impossible for them to continue providing care.”; right to the heart of the issue, namely that healthcare is done on a for profit rational.
When I think of Cuba and it’s production of qualified physicians and it’s training for other countries would be physicians, it only adds to my disgust with the tying together of ‘democracy’ with ‘capitalism’; no rationale for such to exist except that we allow to be.
I agree, and believe all health care costs ought to come from the general fund, just like the military expenditures.
yes, but what is “market cost” when waste accounts for fifty cents or more of every dollar spent and price elasticity of demand is horizontal? The whole point is that “market cost” can’t be priced correctly by market participants. Pick a random number and cut it in half. Or better yet, get yourself some Canadian or French or Singaporean numbers (available on their respective and highly transparent national health service websites in exhaustive detail) and baseline benchmark based on ‘em.
I’m fine with using Medicare rates as long as they’re lower than private rates, and then I’d want the government to cut back those rates every year or at least ensure that the grow at a lower rate than inflation, if at all, in absolute terms. I’m also fine with just cutting Medicare rates in half and using that as your baseline on day one, if you want to give it a try, although politically that probably won’t be palatable (well, this side of heck freezing over).
Medicare rates are, by the way, way too high against any system of international healthcare-outcomes benchmarking, way too high according to CBO studies and most industry economics. Which is why I strongly believe HR 676 simply doesn’t work.
PLEASE HELP.
My representative and both my senators are Republican. (Well, maybe there’s no quick way to help with that!)
Anyway, I want to email the following letter to each of them this evening. I hope it’s clear what I’m trying to do in this letter. Please tell me what you think and give me suggestions to make it better before I send it.
It makes me really angry that Obama is going to Denmark to lobby for Chicago to have the Olympics.
He no longer represents Illinois but all of us. I don’t care one iota whether or not Chicago get the Games – I do care that business at home get taken care of promptly.
I think North Dakota has a lot of new fancy hospitals, but it also has a lot of old people. They build these hospitals and then need to pay for them. So they charge a lot. Didn’t T.J. Reid say that an MRI in Japan cost $98 and an average one here costs $1500? The Japanese govt told their engineers to come up with a cheaper machine. And they did. If we had Medicare for All, the govt could negotiate fair and cheaper costs.
I thought the whole reason for reform was that costs are breaking our budget both the country’s and our personal budgets. So why are we talking about Medicare paying too little rather than insurance companies paying too much with our money?
This is crazy making.
Medicare rates may be lower — but then, doctors don’t have to hire an extra person whose sole job is to beg Medicare to pay the bill.
Whether you talk about single-payer or the public option, public opinion is not the block. The block is the members of Congress who will not vote their districts. And the monstrous egos and petty partisanship. Not to mention the repetitious rhetorical stupid of the GOP Senators and House members.
And guess what, we are going to face the same issues on a real climate change bill, real financial industry reform, and double the fight on the Employee Free Choice Act. All of those wonderful “progressive” allies who voted for these things when they couldn’t pass suddenly evaporate when they can.
Gear yourself up for another solid year of this sort of fight. If we can get the bills out of Congress, they will be popular. But they will partially shut down the Congressional gravy train. But not until after the affected industries have a go at repeal.
I heard that they are discovering disparitites between the states. I used to do medical billing, and the doctor would have to write off a substantial portion of the bill. What I’m wondering is, have they been getting subsidies to make up for it? That’s whacko.
Let’s REMOVE ALL SUBSIDIES and make the medicare payment rates fair across the country. But, we also have to crack down on the medicare fraud and over billing.
oh big LOL…..707
I love Senator Harkin, he’s one of the good guys. GO TOM GO! :)
I find it funny that Michael Moore is willing to threaten Democrats over the Public Option by threatening their seats. He states that they had better support Obama’s demand for a Public Option. Did I miss something? When was this demand made? Why not go after the HEAD OF THE DEMOCRAT PARTY himself? Why is he not responsible for what is occuring in Congress?
http://www.politico.com/news/s…..27703.html
I wrote Issa yesterday and got an answer back within an hour, which never happens.
I thanked him for taking on corporate fraud wrt ACORN, Halliburton, Xe, Medical insurance companies.
Apparently the staffer didn’t read anything but the word acorn…
But your letter is really good. Sorry about your total republican situation.
I am a psychologist who provides services in nursing homes; have done so for going on fourteen years. Thus, most of my reimbursement is from Medicare; second is Medicaid, and about fifteen percent of my clients have a secondary such as BC/BS Plan 65. Because I provide mental health services, I am reimbursed at 50% of the allowable; non-mental health services are reimbursed at 80% of the allowable. I still gross about $80,000 yearly. Seems reasonable to me, and I love what I do. Most of the physicians I work with use ARNPs and PAs,– “physician extenders” whom they pay a salary, but for whose services are reimbursed the same as if the physician himself provided the service. I doubt any of these physicians net any less than 30% more than what I gross. None of us have high overhead. And, the the physicians have no more time invested in their education than I, though the cost of medical school was more than my education cost.
Point is this. Tying compensation to Medicare rates is more than fair. Indeed, most physicians went to medical school at taxpayer expense; that is, the taxpayer paid for more than half of their medical school education if they went to a state funded medical program. The elephant in the room is simply that physicians today expect to make too much money.
Medicare rates are negotiated! The notion of some bureaucrat saying “This is what Medicare’s going to pay and that’s that” is completely false. Payments vary geographically and by numerous other modifiers (teaching hospitals get paid more, for example). There’s a huge lobby on Capitol Hill focused on maximizing payments and finding loopholes, and they’ve been very successful. Why else would Medicare’s per beneficiary costs be growing at more than twice the rate of inflation?
What Public Option opponents succeeded in getting in the Tri-Committee and HELP Bills is a system where the PO has to negotiate *individually* with each of thousands of Providers and Provider groups. It’s an enormous logistical hurdle. In fact it’s impossible unless we endowed the PO with enough market clout by requiring that everyone who gets subsidies uses the PO. That’s why Pelosi is absolutely right to put the Medicare+5% rates back in the House bill.
Thank you for sharing insights from your perspective. It’s definitely important to hear it! Also, I think you’ve identified perfectly what a big part of the problem is. Wish more people in all fields were more like you!
emptywheel is upstairs!
The Lack of Discipline Is Spelled R-A-H-M
Out in the sticks the reimbursement rates are lower. And, they should be.
The docs and hospital administrators bitch about it, but most notice they do very well.
There are reasons for these regional variations. See the Maggie Mahar guest post — last link.
Conrad et al are ignoring the common preference among physicians for Medicare versus private insurance, especially among very busy primary care docs. They just want to practice medicine and be predictably reimbursed instead of spending their time and resources figuring out what will be covered by a multitude of insurance plans and trying to get them to pay. I think this is just conservative politicians’ excuse for screwing the public and voting for their corporate benefactors.
Scarecrow is right. Both of us have pointed out that Medicare rates are a real concern, but we have a system in place to do this job, and HR 3200 has a whole title devoted to dealing with complaints about these reimbursement rates.
In addition, Medicare has an excellent system in place for inexpensive payments. It functions smoothly and simply. The cost to doctors of collecting from insurance companies is so much higher that it eats into any higher reimbursement.
This is an important element of any calculation of actual costs.
it’s not that I don’t want to believe that… indeed, Tom, please deliver.
As for hospitals, they typically provide a lot of expensive emergency care that they don’t get reimbursed for. A good PO paying Medicare rates would be very much to hospitals’ benefit. Conrad isn’t protecting his hospitals, he’s protecting insurance corporations.
I don’t know of much negotiation going on with Medicare rates. They are set by a set of complex formulas. There is negotiation going on at the federal legislative level, but these are for legislative action that sets adjustment factors that shift broad classes of payments up or down within a window of allowable annual changes from historical average costs. Old historical average costs have a long term effect on regional variations in Medicare rates.
So, I think the reimbursement of Medicare services is a problem. There are some areas, particularly in the northern mountain states, eastern Washington and Oregon and northern plains what claim to be ripped off because of their historically low costs. I do not know whether their providers would go broke, but they do have particularly low rates.
Thanks for the links to discussion on medicare pricing.
If you want single payer go to Canada…
Hi thought punaise was going to use his subtle and mad Frenglish skillz to bring us French health care. Ooops. Now I am worried. I was complaisant.
That’s one option for Americans.
Another is to tell our Representatives and Senators what we think and what we want, and to contribute to groups that are expressing our views effectively with ads in newspapers and on television.
Americans must keep doing all we can until we’re satisfied that we’ve been heard and that we’ve made things change for the better.
That’s true for all Americans, conservative, liberal, or whatever.
Eli is upstairs!
Does Ben Nelson Have Four Friends?
From Maggie Mahar:
“The value of [Medicare] DRG’s and modifiers are supposed to be derived from evidence, but in reality there is also a large political component, with members of Congress intervening aggressively to force changes in payments for their areas, both rural and urban.”
Medicare rates are negotiated with whom? Certainly not with non-hospital providers such as myself. I don’t know any physician/psychologist/clinical social worker who got to negotiate reimbursement with Medicare.
I think that’s where we are headed in the future, but it won’t happen now. I live among those who are scared to death of socialized medicine and while some are willing to accept that a PO could be an option without necessarily taking over the whole world and that it could actually provide a useful experiment in whether public or private is a bigger bureaucratic nightmare, they can’t go so far as single payer. I have my own doubts looking at it today because I am getting so cynical about my government. I don’t trust them not to make all kinds of stupid decisions based on politics even if they don’t have to worry about shareholder profit. I am split on whether a PO bandaid (which is the only kind of PO we’ll get this round, if any) or letting it fall apart so we can finally do it right is better at this point in time. But much as I am encouraged by how fed up people are getting with corporations, I am convinced they aren’t fed up enough yet to dump them completely. And while I’m all for dumping the CEO’s tomorrow, it really will take more time to do something with all the other employees of the private system, and a jobless recovery period from a major depression doesn’t seem like the easiest time to do that. Push the unemployment numbers up by that much, even temporarily, and all hell will break loose, I’m afraid.
Five Democrats joined with all the Republicans on the committee to reject an amendment by Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) in a 15-8 vote.
This is how Bull Shit works………
Max Baucus (D-Mont.), Kent Conrad (D-N.D.), Blanche Lincoln (D-Ark.), Tom Carper (D-Del.) with a large rural areas in there states voted against Rockefeller because they didn’t like Medicare reimbursements that there states would go bankrupt….They all new before the Rockefeller vote that Charles Grassley (R-Iowa) and Max Baucus (D-Mont.) had worked out the Medicare discrepancy, so the Four above just did a snow job on Rockefeller (D-W.Va.) amendment along with all of us.
The vote should have been 12-11 with Sens. Bill Nelson (D-Fla.)voting with the Republicans…
Criminally corrupt politicians are the reason the U.S. is ranked near the bottom of every catagory when ranked next to other modern, industrialized nations. Time for publically funded elections.
The Congress is back in session and doing the dirty work for the Medical Industrial Complex.
mcconnell $3.3M, hatch $2.9M, baucus $2.8M, grassley $2.7M,
lieberman $2.6M, burr $2.4M, ensign $2.4M, cornyn $2.2M, kyl $2.1M,
conrad $2.1M, cantor $1.8M, boehner $1.7M, coburn $1.2M, j wilson 800K
were paid by the Medical Industrial Complex to kill Health Care Reform.
(Source: OpenSecrets.org)
Co-Author Dr. Steffie Woolhandler of a Recent Harvard Study on Annual Deaths of America’s Uninsured, says the lack of coverage can be tied to about 45,000 deaths a year in the United States. The only way to affordably cover all Americans is through a Medicare-for-All, Single-Payer System. A Single-Payer System would generate $300-$400 billion in administrative savings annually, enough to cover all of the uninsured, and to plug the gaps in coverage for Americans with only partial coverage. Obviously, Medicare-for-all is anathema to the insurance industry. What politicians are doing is saving insurance industry profits, by sacrificing American lives.
12 Million Americans were denied health care coverage by the Medical Industrial Complex because they had a pre-existing medical condition. 12K Americans are denied insurance coverage everyday by a for-profit Insurance bureaucrat. (Source: WaPo Article 05′ by Harvard Prof. E. Warren)
Medical malpractice lawsuits are a hot topic but, are they? Tort Reform is such a “Red Herring” and is easily disproved. A 2004 report by the Congressional Budget Office said medical malpractice makes up only 2 percent of U.S. health spending. Even “significant reductions” would do little to curb health-care expenses, it concluded.
bush(43) economic speech writer david frum, at least, is willing to admit the idea about selling insurance across state lines is a crock:
New Jersey health policies cost more in large part because New Jersey hospitals and doctors charge more. If I buy a cheaper Kentucky policy that reimburses my providers at Kentucky rates, leaving me to pay the balance, how much good does that do me? And if the Kentucky policy is made to pay New Jersey rates, there vanishes my low Kentucky price.
These are some of the easily refuted arguments bought and paid for by the Medical Industrial Complex to derail any chance of their criminally massive profits being reduced.
Follow the Money: Link
Call Congress and demand, Single-Payer Health Care for All!
(Toll Free # House and Senate)
1-866-338-1015 _____ 1-866-220-0044
1-800-473-6711 _____ 1-866-311-3405
Sign Single-Payer Petition: Link
Don’t let the Medical Industrial Complex steal your Health Care from you and your family by donating huge sums of money to Crooked Politicians in order to maintain the Status Quo. Keep up the good fight.
SEMPER FI!
Go to Canada? Are you a ignorant F-head?
The Diane Rehm show on (what took place yesterday) this topic. Now… 10 est
Send in your questions comments, tweet etc. Flood her program with questions comments
http://wamu.org/programs/dr/
drshow@wamu.org
800-443-8850
The Ed Schultz show Tuesday said the rural rates for medicare reimbursement need to be updated. The Blue Dogs on the Finance Committee stressed to Ed that their hospitals could not survive with the current low rates for rural areas. It is not difficult to redo these rates and they seem to be in need of an upgrade. The implication was that without this problem, they would be more open to the public option.